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Bronze Member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 11 Registered: May-07 | Wadded through the last year or two's Tube Talk trying to glean as much as possible before I dive in. Current system: PS Audio's Duet-->Rega Apollo -->NAD 372-->Nordost Blue Heaven-->Totem Forest. It was only after a lot of time in the listening room before I found each piece and the ears are very happy. Now I'm curious and thinking to add a tube driven integrated amp. Any thoughts on either of PrimaLuna's line? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12368 Registered: May-04 | . As a line PrimaLuna is a good value oriented product that satisfies lots of reviewers. What's got you interested in tubes vs. your amplifier? |
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Bronze Member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 12 Registered: May-07 | Call it what you want but, as a EE major with an emphasis in semiconductor physics, I have a real appreciation for the magic in circuitry. Tubes are yet another phenomena from the standpoint of electric fields - absolutely amazing engineering! I guess I just want a piece of the past to tinker with. Any specific thoughts on PrimaLuna's lines that would lend toward choosing one over another? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 175 Registered: Jul-07 | Would the amp be driving your Totem's ? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12371 Registered: May-04 | . The PrimaLuna line is strong from top to bottom. I wouldn't be swayed by triode switching or the ability to have negative feedback or not. I seem to remember one of their early amps being based around the McIntosh Unity Coupled transformers. I would choose that topology over a basic UltraLinear design if the two amps are otherwise judged equals. Buy an amplifier that suits your needs and pick tubes that sound good to your ear (my preference is for beam power types or, better yet, the KT versions of such tubes). I would dissaude you from trying to find "tube sound" and listen instead for music that meets your definition of pleasantly well balanced and involving. Otherwise, since you're an EE major I would suggest you look into either some high quality vintage gear for refurbishment or a DIY kit amp that offers excellent value. Vintage gear has the advantage of recouping most if not all of your investment when you upgrade. . |
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Bronze Member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 13 Registered: May-07 | Chris, the Totems provide superb sound to my ear playing my music. If they don't perform as well, I'll assume it's the amp and will try out the B&W book shelves I have. Jan, you've peaked my interest in vintage gear however, without access to appropriate test equipment, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to accomplish what I want without a lot of trouble. I like the features the PrimaLuna line offers such as autobias and ability to swap tubes. Any further thoughts? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12380 Registered: May-04 | . Not really. Most of the upgrades on vintage gear can be done with not much more than a VOM. Otherwise, you get to pick what sounds best for your requireemnts. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 179 Registered: Jul-07 | If you're really into the Totem sound, then I think you'd love listening to them through any of the PrimaLuna amps. I think you would find it quite an upgrade. More speed, more punch, and more fullness and depth to the presentation. Even the Prologue One would drive the Totem's nicely, unless you listen at unsafe db levels. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2805 Registered: Sep-04 | I think this is a bad idea. The Forests have an awkward impedance load which doesn't lend itself to the lower outputs of the entry level Prima Luna amplifier. Look at the ProLogue Two (40wpc) as a minimum and don't expect it to go loud or have a lot of drive. If you can, try before you buy, with your speakers. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 185 Registered: Jul-07 | Frank, what is 40wpc going to accomplish that 35wpc won't ? Unless I'm mixed up in the wattage ratings on those two amps. The ProLogue was 35wpc last time I checked. If you put KT88's in the One, I don't think there would be a hill of beans difference from the Two as far as ability to drive those speakers. Just my opinion. As always, there is only one way to know for sure. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12383 Registered: May-04 | . I'm unfamiliar with the Totem line and thought their philosophy was a resonably simple and efficient load achieved through simple crossovers paired with relatively high electrical sensitivity drivers. If what Frank says is true, you might not want to choose any budget tube amplifier for this pairing. It is not the fact the amplifier doesn't have sufficient power, as CH indicates there should be relatively small differences between a 35 to 40 watt amplifier if all things are equal. However, it is not the output tube nor the wattage alone that determines whether the amp can drive more difficult loads. It is the topology of the amplifier and whether one unit is more capable of delivering the current required to drive a low impedance and/or high electrical phase angle. This should simply be a matter of asking the PrimaLuna dealer which amplifier would be the most appropriate for the speaker in question. Any PrimaLuna dealer worth the line should be able to instruct you as to appropriate speaker pairings. However, the more important consideration, IMO, is the output impedance of the amplifier compared to the impedance load of the speaker. Even if the speaker does not require high current to work well, a speaker with a broad fluctuation in its impedance will react with the typically higher output impedance of most tube amplifiers. You can do the research to find the high and low impedance points of the sepaker and the output impedance of the proposed amplifier. If the PrimaLuna has an output impedance of, say, one Ohm at 1kHz from the four Ohm output tap, it will be higher at both low and high frequencies and certainly higher from the eight Ohm tap. With a one Ohm output impedance the amp will want to see an impedance that doesn't vary beyond a few Ohms even as the speaker voice coils and crosover components are heated with high powered volume. If the speaker takes a large dip down to four Ohms or less and has a rising high frequency impedance, the amplifier will react to this load as Ohm's Law dictates. This will result in frequency errors from the amplifier. Do the math and consider the results. If you are predicting more than one decibel of error - plus or minus - then you would certainly want to audition this amplifier with your speakers before you made a purchase. http://www.symphonysound.com/articles/tubefriendly.html http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 187 Registered: Jul-07 | According to the measurements here http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/378/index5.html this loudspeaker looks pretty tube friendly to me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12387 Registered: May-04 | . As JA says, it will not demand much of a tube amplifier. However, the 20 Ohm plus impedance peaks and rising impedance in the high frequencies will very likely not make a good pairing with all tube amplifiers for the reasons I mentioned above. I suspect you're going to find many tube amplifiers sounding rather lame in the bass and rolled in the highs with this speaker. This would, IMO, be a definite try before you buy scenario. . |
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Bronze Member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 14 Registered: May-07 | Thanks for the references. Read through with interest and believe the Forests won't be an issue - I'll report back with my findings later. So, it comes down to the ~$200+ question of what will my ears prefer; EL-34's (or equivalent) or KT88's (or equivalent) and, what manufacture should I look to obtain them? What a terrible spot to be in, huh? :-) Thoughts? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 215 Registered: Jul-07 | You'll have to decide which your ears prefer. KT-88's are more punchy and lively (typically), the EL-34's more rich tonally. Sourcing them shouldn't be a problem at all. Lots of places for either. |
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New member Username: Kala98Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-08 | Take a look at Rogue Audio. They have offering all over the price range that might suit you. I have the Tempest II integrated, and it can produce 90w in UL mode (KT88s). |
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New member Username: Kala98Post Number: 2 Registered: Apr-08 | I have to have at least more than one post! Rogue also has a cheaper integrated with EL34 (with supposedly great phono!), but I have only heard that in a store so I can't offer more than that. The folks at Rogue are very friendly, and very helpful. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2854 Registered: Sep-04 | Me personally, I prefer EL34s but loads of people deride me for that point of view. I even prefer EL34s to 300Bs a lot of the time and that really gets people going...! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 219 Registered: Jul-07 | There's no wrong answer there Frank. You like what you like. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10043 Registered: Dec-04 | Welcome to the forum, CS. |
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Bronze Member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 15 Registered: May-07 | Any thoughts on Cayin's line of integrated tube amps? They offer at least 6 different styles, two of which revolve around either the KT-88 and EL-34 (or equivalents) and a third that runs on a 300B (SET). Also, any thought on either of Cary Audio Design's two integrated tube amps (CAD 300 or SLI-80)? I realize it's a broad question but I'm looking for something that might move one of these to the forefront with my current thought to go with a PrimaLuna Dialogue Two. Thanks, Greg |