Bookshelf Speaker Faceoff 2007 @ Audioholics
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1261 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/bookshelf-speaker-faceoff- 2007 |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 905 Registered: Apr-06 | Interesting results to be sure. |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 55 Registered: Aug-06 | Great link Christopher. Very informative. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11165 Registered: May-04 | . "Which is better? A? Or, B? A? Or, B?" Were they testing speakers or selling speakers? Sorry, CM, I've seldom found anything of value at Audioholics. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8416 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Chris. Good info for new buyers. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 586 Registered: Jan-05 | I could have come up with a better conclusion than they did.. Perhaps they should have picked 4 'professionals' from this forum. |
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Silver Member Username: Sukhoi30New Zealand Post Number: 157 Registered: Jun-06 | A Resounding YES to what Jan says |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1262 Registered: Oct-04 | I agree there wasn't too much value to this "shootout", but I give them credit for trying. The problem was their results were all over the place, and the field was too spread-out price-wise. It would have made more sense to have: A sub-$200 shootout A $200-$500 shootout A $500-$1000 shootout And a $1000+ shootout ...and then a shootout between the winners from each category. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5277 Registered: Feb-05 | Not impressed, much like the folks at Sound & Vision, I don't think these folks have a clue. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 186 Registered: Jan-07 | I'm on record as being a big fan of 'double blind' testing, but the above 'test' is ridiculous. What were they thinking? What does it 'prove'? |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 857 Registered: Nov-06 | "The MC-6C's continued their excellent performance, though they also continued to fatigue my ears a bit." Statements like that are a little counterproductive, and are indications to me that the reviewer is trying to hawk a certain brand. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1264 Registered: Oct-04 | Stereomojo did a good job with their integrated amp shootout http://www.stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm (I thought I posted this in this thread already, must be the booze). They're planing a "small speaker shootout" http://www.stereomojo.com/Speaker%20shootout%20nominees/SpeakerShootoutNominees. htm , I suggested a few speakers (care to guess which?), why don't some of you guys chime it with your favorites for this battle royal. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8442 Registered: Dec-04 | Psb Alpha. If this hangover won't go away I am gonna have to try Scotch. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1265 Registered: Oct-04 | Gatorade & Activated Charcoal Tablets Nuck. If that doesn't work, then try the scotch. Have you ever tried Bowmore 12-yr. http://www.bowmorescotch.com/html/12yearold.html $25/bottle in NYC & worth every penny. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2081 Registered: May-05 | "If this hangover won't go away I am gonna have to try Scotch." The best thing for a hang over is a shot. When I was bartending in college, I used to open the bar at 10AM Saturdays. I didn't even want to smell alcohol due to the previous night's excesses. I'd come in, punch in, chill a shot of Yukon Jack, and sit down. 15 minutes later I was a new man. It wasn't too easy keeping it down though. I'd always make sure I did it near a garbage can. Not that I ever needed it. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 203 Registered: Nov-06 | Well read that too; In general, they do accurately describe some of the known issues among these various speakers. I am not sure ANY of these speakers are particularly good overall frankly. My comment is that speakers should only do whatever it is that they are suppposed to do well, or not at all. Bookshelfs trying to get into lower extension frequencies usually reserved for larger cabinets/woofers and more power almost always fail in that task. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8450 Registered: Dec-04 | I dunno,Marc. It depends how low is low. I heard a pair of Psb25's driven by Bryston/Linn that played well into the low 30's. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 162 Registered: Feb-07 | Personally, audioholics is not my favorite forum lol. Like what CM suggusted a price range speaker shoot would have been more ideal. Once a holis has a shoot out for sure you always know they will have their sponsers brands on the list |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 858 Registered: Nov-06 | I believe I can locate a review where they loved the little usher, and they pretty much trashed it there. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 859 Registered: Nov-06 | "As far as I'm concerned, these are THE budget bookshelf speakers to beat." That was the closing sentence from the audioholics review of the usher audio s-520, which was ripped apart in the shootout. Here is the review: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/usher-audio-s-520-bookshel f-speaker-review I have found lots of the reviews contradictory, leaving me to take them with a grain of salt. However, RBH and Axiom reviews are almost uniformly positive, even when loaded with backhanded comments like the one I made previously, nothing outright negative is said reguarding RBH and Axiom. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8456 Registered: Dec-04 | More advertising space would have tightened up the midrange. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1266 Registered: Oct-04 | HA! |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 860 Registered: Nov-06 | Exactly Nuck... Audioholics hardly ever says anything negative about manufacturers that advertise with them, and rip on every little flaw that other manufacturers have. I am certain that they would find some minute flaw with the Wilson Audio WAMM that only a dog would hear, and make it out to be a fcuking Greek tragedy. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 243 Registered: Jul-07 | Stereomojo: Methodology by Art Smuck. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 165 Registered: Feb-07 | That sounds like audioholics the back axiom and Rbh to the death, hey i dont blame them back those who back you lol |
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Silver Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 163 Registered: Aug-05 | Amazing how different the Ascend Sierra reviews are at other places. It really doesn't help Audioholics' rep as biased for their advertisers when their review is that different. http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0907/ascend_acoustic_sierra_1.ht m |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8502 Registered: Dec-04 | A very good example, Quinn. |
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Silver Member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 148 Registered: Jun-04 | add this one http://www.affordableaudio.org/ |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1283 Registered: Oct-04 | Biased or not, I like http://www.affordableaudio.org/ , but I think my favorite is http://www.6moons.com/ . |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 171 Registered: Feb-07 | definately check out affordable audio. |
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New member Username: Timbo2Post Number: 1 Registered: Sep-07 | Marc, "I am not sure ANY of these speakers are particularly good overall frankly. My comment is that speakers should only do whatever it is that they are suppposed to do well, or not at all. Bookshelfs trying to get into lower extension frequencies usually reserved for larger cabinets/woofers and more power almost always fail in that task." So did you hear the Sierras and were not impressed? I had a feeling that's what you are referring to, and that they might be a little overhyped. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8532 Registered: Dec-04 | Overhyped speakers??? Naw... |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 923 Registered: Apr-06 | Needless to say, Sierra isn't the second coming of Christ, nor is it going to supplant your subwoofer as your primary source of deep bass response. Its measured bass response seems on par with some of its competitors along the lines of the NHT Classic 3 and the Paradigm Studio 20 in terms of depth, although distortion is notably higher in that area. This of course is somewhat understandable given that the Sierra is a smaller speaker. Physics is physics. The interesting part to me is that Ascend seems to have given up a bit of neutrality for the Sierra in comparison with its predecessors. This of course is now making some of the old Ascend supporters finally realize that FR is not, in fact , the only component of deciding whether or not a speaker is good. While I'm sure they took much pleasure in touting how flat their speakers measured, they sure ticked off enough people here trying to claim how much better they were than anything else on the market by virtue of that one graph. |
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New member Username: Timbo2Post Number: 2 Registered: Sep-07 | "Its measured bass response seems on par with some of its competitors along the lines of the NHT Classic 3 and the Paradigm Studio 20 in terms of depth, although distortion is notably higher in that area." Are you saying the Sierras have muddier bass? If yes, do you base that on hearing them yourself or through some sort of specs you've seen? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 924 Registered: Apr-06 | That is based on simple objective data. http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html THD+N @ 90dB Average Output Ascend @ 50Hz : 72dB distortion for 80dB Output Paradigm @ 50Hz: 59dB distortion for 84dB Output NHT @ 50Hz: 68dB distortion for 84dB Output |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 925 Registered: Apr-06 | Note that the Sierra at that point is putting out over 30% distortion. Not exactly something I'd really endorse running full range for anything approaching "spirited" listening. |
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New member Username: Timbo2Post Number: 3 Registered: Sep-07 | Interesting...I wonder what 13db in extra distortion sounds like, how noticeable I mean. Doesn't seem like a good sign. Wonder if it's due to the 5.25" woofer size. Are the Paradigm and NHT models 6.5" models? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8537 Registered: Dec-04 | SM, way to stir this pot a bit. Quinn? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8538 Registered: Dec-04 | Remembering, of course, that THD is more a measure of amplification than speakers, and is a moot point anyhow, as the most bastardized number since the number one. And the noise factor is based on what? Useless numbers for sales guys. Try 'em and find out. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 927 Registered: Apr-06 | Nuck: No one ever said that THD+Noise was the only determinant of speaker quality. However, like most measurements, it does tell you one or two things. And no, these aren't sales figures; these are figures from the NRC. Besides, where would we be if the pot didn't get stirred from time to time  Anyways, there are any number of people over on other forums claiming that these speakers don't need subs for music, and how their bass is so much cleaner than that of their subwoofers. I'd like some kind of objective data out there, so people actually know what these speakers can and cannot do. Running them full range at high levels is one thing they can't do well. Timbo: It isn't about dBs, its about percentages; Soundstage provides a good explanation. If you drive the Sierra full range to moderately high volumes, a sizeable chunk of its output will be distortion. If you don't listen at loud volumes, then it doesn't matter. If you use them with a subwoofer crossed at about 80Hz, it doesn't matter *as much*. As far as woofer sizes go, all other things being equal, a 6.5 will move more air than a 5.25, but that doesn't automatically guarantee anything. Nonetheless, the final results speak for themselves. The Ascends put out more than 30% distortion under the specified conditions, whereas the Paradigm puts out under 10%. If running these speakers full range and at high volumes is on your list of things to do, the Paradigm has a significant advantage, period. And if you can't hear that a speaker is putting out that much distortion, you probably shouldn't be spending $800 on a pair of bookshelves in the first place. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1284 Registered: Oct-04 | Oy Vey! I can see the smoke-signals going up as I type. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11216 Registered: May-04 | . I'm gonna guess most people never imagined their speakers were producing 10% or more harmonic distortion. They would be appalled if they knew their 0.001% receiver was running through a speaker with 10% or more T.H.D. Just goes to show ya. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8545 Registered: Dec-04 | Steve, I ain't gonna jump up and say that THD is important to anyone, but I will say that it shouldn't be since ABBA. Trash numbers from a THD fairy. But, hey, it got me a quarter! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11218 Registered: May-04 | . "But, hey, it got me a quarter!" What did you do? Put a blown tweeter under your pillow? |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 194 Registered: Jan-07 | Isn't it true that the ear has variable sensitivity to distortion based on frequency? 5->10%@50hz is much easier to take than 2%@5Khz, no? and 10%@5Khz is intolerable. This is speaker distortion, not amp distortion. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 928 Registered: Apr-06 | Leo: There are some papers that indicate that given that our hearing in general is less sensitive at bass frequencies, our ability to detect distortion is less also. However, with the levels of distortion we are talking about (-8dB / >30%), along with the average output level it was taken (90dB anechoic), and the 10dB down point (roughly 50Hz), Sierra is not a speaker I would use without a good subwoofer, in spite of what some are saying. Anyways, enough pot stirring for now. |
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New member Username: DavidfabPost Number: 9 Registered: Aug-05 | Hi Christopher, You bring up a good point here but there are a few things worth mentioning. First off, the graph that you refer to is 90dB spl at 2 meters in an anechoic chamber from a single loudspeaker. This is easily equivalent to about 100dB output from a single loudspeaker in-room at 1 meter away, or 103dB output from a pair of speakers. It is also a swept sine wave source, in other words, about as abusive to a loudspeaker as you can get - and not reflective of actual music listening. (far too loud for most people) Additionally, the graph posted is misleading and requires explanation... Because these measurements are taken in a true anechoic chamber and this is a rear ported loudspeaker, bass response in the port range is not correctly reflected in the frequency response measurement. Much of the bass output of the port is actually absorbed in the wall treatments. THD measurement techniques at the NRC have also changed since the B&W CM1 was tested (about 3 or 4 speakers ago) They did not inform me exactly what changed so I am not sure if comparing newer graphs to older ones is valid. If you look at any recent measurements of rear ported speakers, you will see that the low end response does not match manufacturers specifications (usually not even close). For example, look at the B&W CM1 (http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/bw_cm1/) B&W's spec is -3dB at 55Hz while the graph indicates about -12, -13dB down at 55 Hz. A 10Hz difference. You will also notice that same huge jump in distortion at this frequency, the same with our Sierra-1 and also about the same level of discrepancy in the low frequency response compared to our published spec... There is a very real explanation why the distortion measurement is so high at this frequency and why it increases so dramatically. As I am sure you know, as you approach the port tune frequency, less output is produced by the woofer and more is produced from the port. In fact, at port tune frequency, the woofer is barely even moving -- with almost 100% of output being produced from the port. As mentioned above, because this is a rear ported speaker and being tested in a true anechoic chamber (I believe tuned to about 50Hz) -- the majority of the output of the rear port is being absorbed in the 3-4 foot thick foam wedges behind the speaker and since there is barely any output from the woofer at all, all that is left to measure is pure noise (the graph is THD + noise). Try placing 5-6 pillows directly behind the port of a rear ported speaker --- where'd the bass go? I have had a few discussions with some of the people over there regarding this, especially when it comes to including the output of the port in the frequency response measurements (simply a matter of turning the speaker around so the port faces the mic and then averaging this into the measurement) but their response was that since it is the same for all speakers, they are not willing to change. I don't agree with this though, as front ported speakers will provide better looking THD+noise graphs and deeper extension in the frequency response graph. Here is a link to some deep bass torture tests of the Sierra-1 conducted by Craig Chase in a large room at 3 meters away: http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra45hzox5.jpg Craig measured 90dB of output at 45 Hz with 2nd order disortion at 7%. Which is much more reflective of how the speaker is truly performing. While I am all for crossing over at around 60Hz and using a subwoofer, for music listening I think many (even most?) will find the bass of the Sierra-1 cleaner and tighter (more musical) than many subwoofers. I know I do, as do hundreds of Sierra-1 owners. Personally, I haven't used a subwoofer in quite some time. Although I felt a sub was missing when I watched 300 last night. Definitely consider adding a sub for home theater usage... I am not here to "ruffle any feathers", but there is a reason those distortion measurements are high and they are certainly not reflective of actual performance. Note: The NHT classic 3 you mentioned is a sealed speaker so all bass response is being reproduced by the woofer in the front and the Paradigm Signature you mentioned is front ported (the majority of port output will reach the mic before it is absorbed by the wall treatments). I would say that the only fair way to compare distortion between all three of the speakers is in a frequency range where the port is producing minimal output, from 100Hz on up. Due to the measurement technique employed, distortion and response comparisons at frequencies where the port tube is contributing to output are simply not valid. Believe me, I wish the NRC did things differently as I use there measurements as one point of reference for calibration of our own engineering gear... Hope you find this useful... |
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New member Username: DavidfabPost Number: 10 Registered: Aug-05 | Christopher, my apologies, my post should have been more directed towards Stephen. Is there anyway to edit a post? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 941 Registered: Apr-06 | Dave: Click on "Your Account" by the Search feature. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 942 Registered: Apr-06 | Good response, by the way. Certainly makes sense to me in any event. For people that are curious, myself included, what kind of limits would you personally place on Sierra in terms of bass response/volume levels? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8600 Registered: Dec-04 | DF, thank you for dropping by to clarify things. With a lot of bashing and carrying on, the music seems to be lost by the wayside at times. The port issue comes up now and again, and your description of the port action is juuuust a little beyond my ken. The driver is basically unmoving, and the port takes over? If you have a 'for dummies' version of this one, I need to read it. Congrats on your successes so far, looking forward to all your new stuff. Again, thank you for stopping by!Leadership by example. I miss Tim, love the Lings. |
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Bronze Member Username: DavidfabPost Number: 11 Registered: Aug-05 | Hi Stephen, >For people that are curious, myself included, what kind of limits would you personally place on Sierra in terms of bass response/volume levels? I would say that in most rooms, the -3dB point is in the low 40Hz range. I have measured -3dB at 39Hz in a few different rooms but the speaker was within 18 inches of the rear wall (subject to some bass reinforcement). The limitations as far as maximum output at low frequencies are fairly close to what Craig Chase measured. At 2 meters away, with a pair of speakers, I have measured about 98dB output with a sine-wave at 44Hz, with less than 10% THD. Maximum output will decrease rather dramatically below this frequency as the woofer is now unloaded (frequencies below port tuning). For a speaker of this size and in my experience, this is impressive. I should mention that this is with a sine wave. I should probably take some measurements with our pulse generator, which is closer to music or home theater listening but I have been somewhat lazy lately. We do a few trick things in this woofer and the result is that the quality of the bass is very good, tight and "fast" (although I hate to use that term, but it is descriptive). A more technically correct term would be an exceptional transient response, which is why I feel many Sierra-1 owners are turning off their subs for 2-channel music; there is a more coherent and detailed sound. That is NOT to say that a quality subwoofer can not keep up with the sound quality, I am receiving reports that many can -- but they are not your typical large cabinet volume, wide-diameter ported subwoofers, which can knock a wall down, these generally sacrifice transient reproduction and phase accuracy to deliver such deep bass. Personally, I want to try one those Fathoms ;) Nuck - >DF, thank you for dropping by to clarify things. With a lot of bashing and carrying on, the music seems to be lost by the wayside at times. Most welcome -- and yes, so much bashing everywhere. It is the nature of forums though since we are not face to face. It is quite an experience when audio hobbyists who typically bash each other online meet face to face for the first time --- It is usually all hugs and high-fives (often followed by too much alcohol) I have seen it and been part of it many times now. Imagine how BORING the forums would be if it was all this is great, that is great, great post -- you are great, who wants that? The bashings, criticisms, complements, raves -- it is all good Keeps things going and growing..... >The port issue comes up now and again, and your description of the port action is juuuust a little beyond my ken. The driver is basically unmoving, and the port takes over? If you have a 'for dummies' version of this one, I need to read it. That is correct, as you approach the port tune frequency, the woofer contributes less and port contributes more. At port tune, the woofer will be moving very little if at all, while it is at this frequency that the most air will be moving in and out of the port. At frequencies below the port tune, things start to change however, both woofer and port are unloaded and the woofer will act as if it is being used in free-air (no air spring to limit excursion) The neat thing about a ported loudspeaker is that because the woofer excursion decreases as you approach the port tune frequency, distortion decreases as well. Typically, the lowest distortion point for a ported loudspeaker (at least in the woofer bandwidth) is at port tune frequency because the woofer itself is barely even moving. This is one of the key advantages of a ported loudspeaker, and probably one of the most overlooked. Here is a very good explanation with a diagram of how it works: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_2/cmilleressayporting.html >>Again, thank you for stopping by!Leadership by example. I miss Tim, love the Lings. You are most welcome. Yes, I was sad to learn that Tim was moving on. This is a brutally competitive industry and it is very difficult to just pay the monthly bills, not overlooking the fact that we must try and make a few dollars too. Tim and I had a rather infamous "public" feud, but we shared many very friendly emails behind the scenes about various things, from measurement techniques to the industry in general, I shared any advice I could offer. He is the genuine article. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8621 Registered: Dec-04 | DF, thanks for the link. I think my sub is wooly. Tim has gone underground for a while I think. Probably a good paying job with a firm, making sure that the college fund is up to speed. You just know he is gonna show up again, though. And yes, he is the real deal! |
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