Help Designing Home Theater - Stand-alone Fireplace
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-07 | Hi All, Just moved to a new location and my old setup would not work here. With the living room design, my only option was flat panel mounted on the fireplace. I just bought a 46" 1080p Samsung that is going to be delivered and installed in 2 weeks when all of our belongings arrive. I'm having a hard time figuring out how the everything will go together. There's two main problems I see. First, I don't know where to put the media cabinet with satellite box, receiver, and XBOX/DVD. I've attached some picture for reference. It would be nice to have it out of the way in a back corner, but with the design of the living room and fireplace by itself, I don't know how we could put it in a discreet area. I think we may have to resort to next to the fireplace where the stairwell is. However, I'm not sure how we'd get the cable line for satellite there or how you'd wire the surround speakers from there. Any suggestions for media cabinet placement and ideas on making it work? Second problem is speaker setup. I currently have a great setup in our old home with my Mirage Omnisat surrounds and JBL center. I know the 2 rear will mount fine in the back no problem. My concern are the front and center channel speakers. Where can I mount them? I really don't want to go to the ceiling. It's vaulted and that would be too high and likely throw off the acoustics. Also, troubleshooting them would be a nightmare. I don't know where else unless they can be mounted on the fireplace. Any ideas? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!     |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 2 Registered: Aug-07 | Here are 2 more pictures...  |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 21 Registered: Aug-07 | Brandon, Wow! If it were me, I would mount every thing on the opposite wall and use back to back couchs. Lack of accessable electric is a problem. The rear speakers I would mount on the sides above the curtin line. I am going to assume that is real brick and not just a fasaude. Also the recessed lighting looks to be strong. Change the bulbs or put them on a reostat. My reason for side mounting the rear speakers is that it is easy and the sound is like a real theater. Good Luck, your friend, Db |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 3 Registered: Aug-07 | Don, thanks for your advice. We're really not trying to turn the room into a home theater. It's a living room first, home theater second. The only way to make it work is with the TV mounted on the fireplace given our furniture. So if our only option is putting the TV on the fireplace, what is the best way to mount the front and center speakers? Any other ideas or options? Luckily, the lighting above the fireplace has an independent switch so we can have those 2 off and the rest on if need be. Thanks! -Brandon |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 32 Registered: Aug-07 | Brandon, I understand. I have designed and installed these systems for over 12 years. Living roon first. I am going to assume that the brick is real brick. Do not worry about heat from the fireplace, you will be ok with either LCD or Plasma. I would use cement ankor bolts to thin frame standard mount. (vesa standard). On the mounting bracket you can buy an attachment that will hold the center channel. Side mount left and right channel speakers to the side if your fire place. Small speakers will do. Take a small chisel and carve out the grout between the brick and the wires between the bricks and re-grout. That will hide the wires. Mounting brackets extend about 4 inches from the brick wall. Run the wires down the length of your oak rail. (use crown moulding to hide those wires. This will allow for easy upgrades in the future. If you are a little more exoitic, you can buy a picture frame and place it around your Samsung. It will just look like a picture. I do not know how big your front speakers will be. But most brackets should hold it. On the left side next to the fireplace, looks like a closet. I would either cut a hole in the cabinet and flush mount the rest of your componets, or open wall rack on that cabinet. This is only a thought. Do not anyone tell you mounting above the fireplace is a bad idea. 60 % of my installations are done that way. Good luck, your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: WestcottLeague City, Texas Post Number: 303 Registered: Oct-05 | And people pay you to install their systems? I guess installing a system is better than not getting paid? Having three speakers four feet apart is useless. And I am not sure where his power is coming from but I doubt the fireplace has an outlet. Room orientation would be wrong and would probably have everyone sitting along the back wall. Another acoustic no no. I have seen a lot of installations from so called experts but most of them are set up all wrong and your recommendation just adds one more to the list! A home theater setup goes far beyond what it looks like and getting it to work technically. The client may say that this is the only way to make the room work but it should be your responsibility to explain to them to reconsider. I have a fireplace and although it is not the focal point of the room any more, we still made it work so room acoustics are still considered. I realize you guys need to make a buck but not taking the time to explain these issues to a potential client is irresponsible. |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 37 Registered: Aug-07 | Dear Wescott, What part of its a living room do you not understand? Not every like you and me care about the ultimite home theater like you and me. I started posting on this site because people like you forget who they are dealing with. This is where HE WANTS TO PUT - IT. He is not asking IF IT IS THE BEST BUT HOW TO MAKE IT WORK!!!!!! BEFORE YOU TRY TO TELL SOME ONE WHAT IS IRRESPONSIBLE_ HAVE A THOUGHT ON WHO YOU ARE TALKING WITH!!!!! IF YOU MANAGED TO COUNT THE BRICKS YOU WOULD REALIZE THE FIRE PLACE IS 6 FEET ACROSS. REMEMBER LIVING ROOM FIRST< HOME THEATER 2ND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Db |
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Silver Member Username: WestcottLeague City, Texas Post Number: 304 Registered: Oct-05 | Thats the problem. You are responsible for telling him this is not a good way to set up the room. NOT agree with him, not explain why it isn't, and not try to persuade him that he can have both with a little more effort or thought to the process. |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 4 Registered: Aug-07 | Thank you both for your input. Westcott - I did tell Don how I wanted it. I appreicate that he tried to work with my needs and not tell me how I was wrong. While I said living room first, I lied. It's actually wife first, living room second, and then HT. Putting the TV on any other wall would ruin the flow of the living room. The room is just too long and narrow. While I appreciate you posting on this thread, it would be more valuable to me if you would mention what option you think is bes, even if it is putting the TV on the other wall. What do you think I should do? All - The fireplace is 81" (6ft 9in) across. My front speakers are Mirage Omnisats that can mount on a single screw. Would I be okay mounting these in the fireplace or should I put them on wall to each side? Also, can I run speaker wire up into the brick of the fireplace (since all the components would be next to it)? Thanks -Brandon |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 157 Registered: Mar-07 | WOW brutal, first, it sounds like this guy whats it one way and thats it. second, my first impression was better pictures please so we can help you exaust all posibilities, but if not is you speakers rear ported, if I was going to mount them to a wall I would look into getting new matching speakers that would be best for this situation. I have to say though, I think you should give better pic`s and let us give sujestions on other ideas, and is this the only room you have to work with? |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 5 Registered: Aug-07 | This is the only room I have to work with. What angle/kind of pictures do you need? I can take anything and upload them for you, just let me know what would be more helpful. Thanks! |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 158 Registered: Mar-07 | and what is the room size, and better pic`s I mean stand at the back of the room so I can see, and I dont think I agree on mounting the rear speakers that way untill I see open pic`s and room size |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 6 Registered: Aug-07 | I was standing in the back.  The room is that narrow. Let me take a few more for you. |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 7 Registered: Aug-07 | The room is about 14' x 25'. Here are more pics...but as I said, I was already standing in the back so they're not that much better.   |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 159 Registered: Mar-07 | is that a closet on the left? I think it would be really cool to have the equipment sunk right in there flush, then all the wires can be contained |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 160 Registered: Mar-07 | are you sure you want your stuff mounted to the fire place, not that it cant work, but you ow it to yourself to take a few days and exaust every posibility. the first three pic`s, thats the way you are thinking that you might want to mount everything to that side right? if yes then what is the room size from the fire place to the back and is the fire place centered or off set sometime pics can be deseving |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 161 Registered: Mar-07 | take one pic center backed agenst the back wall looking were the tv and speakers might go, then center standing on the fire place were the tv might go looking center back were the rear speakers might go, or maybe im just nuts and like pictures of plain walls |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 162 Registered: Mar-07 | if that is a closet on the left the sub could be tucked under the equipment, front firing, exposed but flush with the wall, just thinking |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 8 Registered: Aug-07 | Picture 2 is standing against back wall facing fireplace, where TV would go. While I like the idea of using the closet for components, I don't think we'll want to cut it up and mess with it. |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 38 Registered: Aug-07 | Brandon, thank you for your support. Is your fireplace offset from your viewing location? The battle of Living room Vs theater room, I have seen this a million times are you going to win? (lol,lol really lol. good luck your friend, Db |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 39 Registered: Aug-07 | Brandon, the 46 Samsung, a good choice. The Sony XBR4 will release later this month. This is the best picture that I have sceen in 1080p. your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 163 Registered: Mar-07 | OK Don calm down, looking at what I see your only alterative would be to revers everything, but as far as this way go's, 1. what is the distance from the fire place to back wall? because im thinking the rears should probably be on stands, or on the back wall corners toed in. 2. do you listen to music as well? because this will determine the height of rear speakers. 3. how wide is the fire place? Im thinking costom shelves on the sides, or front face as far as you can get the front speakers apart, on the sides would allow for deep book shelve speakers like pinnacle diamond,or wharfedale, something that would fill that room. or go for mountable flat speakers, ether way matching speakers would help. 4. once again is there an off set on the fire place that would hinder room aligment? 5. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/system-showcase/336284.html this is my room and there has been changes, and yes I live in a trailer with psychedelic carpet, but anyways, that use to be a built in china cabnet, so ether I was going to go gaay and buy china or turn it in to a home theater, thank god for home theater, any ways my point, if I ever had one, is its nice to have everything tucked away that can be and cutting in to that closet for your equipment would be very trick and wouldnt take that much. 6. sub should go left side of fire place. 7. wow now I understand the photos the wall of windows and certains is the back of the room, now I understand what westcott was saying, I had to look at the ceiling to figure it out. wow I have a loss for wards |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 164 Registered: Mar-07 | waite, I have an idea what is the distance between the fire place and the back certains and windows? |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 9 Registered: Aug-07 | The distance between them is 13ft. |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 165 Registered: Mar-07 | I have been interested in the Omni speaker design for years and would like to audition them sometime, I didnt realize how mountable they were, its important to have all mirage speakers in your system, if you like them then why dont you stick with them? I could look around more but somthing hanging from the ceiling for your rear speakers but something that will drop them as low as posible something like this http://www.htmarket.com/om30lbcespmo.html for your center something like this http://www.miragespeakers.com/v2/product_page.php?open=lines&subid=613&id=616 now you will have matching mountable speakers, about the tv do you plan to mount it to the fire place? and Im sorry for all the confusion but if we are not standing in your room |
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New member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 10 Registered: Aug-07 | I plan on stick with my Mirages. I am actually going to be getting that V2 CC speaker to replace my current center sometime soon. The surrounds actually mount very easily...just need a single screw and they are extremely solid. My main concern now is the satellite feed and the HDMI and power wires running through the fireplace. Is this possible/safe? |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 166 Registered: Mar-07 | have you used the fire place to see how hot it gets?and I mean really got it going, and are you planning to mount the tv to it? |
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Bronze Member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 11 Registered: Aug-07 | I have not tested the fireplace yet. We're just moving in so I haven't had time (and it's 90+ outside). Yes, we will mount the TV above it. |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 167 Registered: Mar-07 | I dont fully get your questen, running threw the fire place, if you mean running the, power for tv, HDMI, and speaker wires, by carving out the grout like DB said, well thats probilily what I would do, BUT I cant suggest this to you, I have never done it, and there could be issues like how hard is it to do, what if you damage the brick and what about color matching the grout, how hot is it giong to get, and do they need to be insolated, I can do these things because its what I do in live design and build. I would get somone out there that can look at it for you, I would suggest a glass incloser for the fire place that has those heating tubes with a fan, and a costom one that will vent it out the side or something |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1761 Registered: Feb-04 | I hesitate to weigh in here, mainly because I just don't have that much experience with HT installation or acoustics. Even so, I do have some opinions and suggestions. 1) Opinion: I hate fireplaces. They demand attention, which is OK for a room that functrions without a TV. The TV demands attention and integrating both in the same room is problematic at best. The only plus of fireplaces is a little bit of ambience. On the minus side, they give off very little useful heat and they suck valuable furnace heat out of the house. I also hate over the fireplace TV installations. At least over conventional fireplaces. Most of the time you're looking up at the ceiling to watch TV. Ridiculous. http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t171/JohnS45/fireplace.jpg But obviously Brandon, your fireplace is different. It will afford a more appropriate lower positioning of the display. I do also believe that heat will not be a factor here, as Don has already said. It doesn't look big enough for much more than a small fake firelog anyway. 2) Opinion: I love Mirage Omnisats. A friend has them in 5.1 in a large basement HT. (There's a fireplace there too, but he has successfully ignored it.) They are very impressive and even do a credible job on music. They also put out surprising distortion-free volume. Here's a direct/reflecting speaker system that works and is actually worth the money, unlike those jokes Bose sells. Obviously, the brick poses a problem. You could use an wiring conduit up the left side of the fireplace that wouldn't look too bad. There's a company that makes such things in order to facilitate the many wall mounts out there now. As has been suggested, the wiring could be hidden behind the mortar and repatched. You would need at least two horizontal patched lines for the TV cables and speaker wires. But as Angelo has already said, matching caulk color would be a problem. That, and because the TV is not white and most likely you own black Mirages then 3) Suggestion: Paint it black. Yes, the fireplace. The TV and speakers will almost look like they belong there, the re-grouting will be hidden and picture quality will actually be enhanced with a darker background behind the display. You've already got a beautiful black granite mantel, and besides, the room is too white on white anyway. 4) Suggestion: Use the inside of the closet for the equipment. All you need is the upper space between the closet's end and the start of the door. Put in a couple shelves near the top. The electric is already there. You could use those remote infrared sensors along the top of the closet's outside. They would be barely visible and could operate the entire system out of sight. Wiring would come out the bottom of the closet, across the stairwell railing base under the carpet and up the side of the fireplace. Heat would be more a concern here than over at the fireplace. If necessary, you could install a small vent at the top of the closet that no one would see. 5) Suggestion: The surrounds could be wired down across the basement ceiling and up the back wall. They will sound best probably on either side of the curtains at standing eye level. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1762 Registered: Feb-04 | You know as they say the devil is in the details, and there are plenty of devils to deal with here. For instance I'm not a gamer, so I have no idea whether an xBox could be operated through a wall. The satellite cable, it seems to me, could be routed to the closet just as easily as anywhere else in the house. Concealing the wiring on the front of the fireplace could be a bigger pain than expected. The TV's power cord is going to to be big and fat. In most on-the-wall installations, a standard electrical outlet is installed behind the TV. That seems out of the question here. And unless you can condense all the video signals to one or two wires that'll be a headache too. The best solution would be to invest in a AVR that upconverts all incoming video signals to HDMI and then run only one HDMI cable to the display. The latest Onkyos and Denons do that I think. It's easy to spend other people's money.  |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 169 Registered: Mar-07 | I prefer looking at my equipment 1. I think it looks cool 2. you have access to everything, changing out CD`s and DVD`s 3. I think it looks cool but john, has a good oppion, so I tested the xbox with logitech controller, and the 360, from the kicthen threw the stove the bed room then the bath room threw multiple walls at near 40 feet and though there may be a slight latency at times im not sure hard to tell, they both seamed to pass the test, I would have to play online for a few weeks to give it my approvel I love black, and thats an idea from john I like to, and jhon says he dosnt have much experience, come on jhon I was looking at that brace on the left side to and I know they sell real wood molding that you can match to that beam |
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Bronze Member Username: BrandonbPost Number: 12 Registered: Aug-07 | FYI - I had the install guys come by today to see what they thought. They said there was really no way they could do it without having visible wires(or molding covering the wires). They also mentioned power and sat feed would be an issue. I think we're going to look at new furniture so that we can utilize the end wall instead. We'll probably return this TV and use our Samsung 52" DLP since it's larger and we already own it. Thanks for everyones help! I may be back with other issues soon! |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 170 Registered: Mar-07 | John check out my new baby I call her oprus, now I have to save up for the new opus book shelves, or opus 2`s and yes my game drawer got a lot thinner   |
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Silver Member Username: WestcottLeague City, Texas Post Number: 305 Registered: Oct-05 | " I think we're going to look at new furniture so that we can utilize the end wall instead." Now that was not so hard. It may not have been what you originally envisioned but I think it will work better for you in the end, acoustically and practically. Try to keep your primary seating position 2/3 back from your front speakers. Sitting against the back wall or in the middle of the room in not recommended. |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 40 Registered: Aug-07 | Brandon, I am about to give Wescott a heart attact. I agree with him. I find that most people usually end up doing the right thing. I never do an istallation until the owner(both of them some times) sign the layout sheet. You will have a much better feel for your life style and will be happier in the end. This Is a better solution. I am glad you did make it. You are the type of people I like to do business with because yopu will make the right decision. Westcott, I do like your passion. And your advice is sound. Still the customer still has to make the decision. The rule of thumb for visual experience is this: Take your screen hight, double it anf add 1/2. my screen is 30 inches high. Double = 60 anf to the orginal = 15 total = 75. this is the minium distance from the screen, Take 75 times it by three this this the maxium you should be away from the screem. I would like to tell I came up with this but I did not. I learned it from Runco, at CES one year. I find it works, there is always some adjustment depending on the type of screen you have. Good luck, your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 177 Registered: Mar-07 | we are all going to comeup with good ideas, wild ideas, and bad ideas, and misudersandings (except for John, he hung back) it wouldn`t be any different if we all were standing in the same room hashing it out, except for fist fights, the thing that sucks on the forum is you cant take back what you said once you post, but we do this for, why do we do this? |
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Silver Member Username: WestcottLeague City, Texas Post Number: 306 Registered: Oct-05 | Dear Don, I want to go on record to say I apologize for coming down so hard on you. It was not you, in particular, I was upset with, just the industry as a general whole. I do not think I could do your job. I am an audio hound and it seems audio always takes a back seat to video and asthetics. I am of the firm belief that you can have both with just a little more planning and compromise. My wife was VERY involved in our HT and that made all the difference when it came time to make compromises. My audio\video budget was only 1/4 of initial expenditures so that my wife would be happy with the final outcome. She got the flooring, curtains, furniture, fabrics, and paint colors she wanted and that made our project possible. I just wanted proper acoustics (correct room orientation and speaker placement). I spent a LOT on acoustic isolation of the flooring because she did not want acoustic panels on the wall and bass traps in the corners. But, we made it work for both of us and we both won IMO. I promise that I will be far more considerate in discusssions with you in the future and I hope that there will be many more of them to come. |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 41 Registered: Aug-07 | Mr. Wescott, Thank you and no apology is neccessary. And our industry is full of clowns. I do about 2 installs a week and 1/3 are fixing other peoples screw ups. I joined this blog because I find this site appeard to have people really needing help. I have not advertised in over 6 years. Some of things that I have seen would make you laugh and we get the blame. Your comment about acoustical treatments I wish more people would take into consideration. It is really a quick and better fix for most people. In 1994 we use to install plasma screens flush into the wall. It looked great (in the begining) until the plasma screens started heating up and poping cells. I learned (the hard way) I could not do everything. I can only flush plasma screens when I install cooling fans and vents into the wall. I charge and extra 20,000 just for that. Most of the home theater systems are well under 10k. Far different than screens that use to call that much alone. Final note: I am always looking for better ways to do something. I find people like you to have a Jiminy Crickit nature about them and more people should take heed. And I do believe that sometimes doing nothing is the best think to do. your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: HuronPost Number: 180 Registered: Mar-07 | Im learning a lot on this forum like spelling and what this forum is about, I can bring a lot to the table with my back ground, and there are many gaps in my knowlege just like everyone else but together we fill thous gaps, group Hug everyone |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 396 Registered: Jun-05 | MY 2 cents: I hate TVs over fireplaces. Your room is rectangle and the TV should be on a short wall and your couch about 2/3 of the way across the room. Surround may not be easy to place on side walls but there ia no rule saying you can't put them on the wall behind you. Fireplaces are use about a tenth of the time of a TV,so make the TV the focal point, but with this setup you will be able to see the TV and the fireplace. |
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