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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 277 Registered: Jul-05 | Ok so here is the deal, upgraded to rotel ra 1062 with klipsch reference speakers. That was good but then i upgraded to b&w 704's which was very good, then found a smokin deal for some new vandersteen 2ce sigs. Sold everything and now have: Vandersteen 2ce sig Rotel RCD 1072 Rotel RA 1062 Golden Sound pad Van Den Hul D102 III Hybrid RCA's PS audio Xstream Prelude SC power cords Audioquest Type 8 speaker wire, biwired with spade terminations my rotel ra 1062 does a pretty good job but i think i can gain so much more in transparency, detail, dynamics and air with the speakers if I use the 1062 as a pre and go with a good amp. My question is this, which Amp would have an easier time driving the Vandies with clean current, low distortion. My dealer here wont let me demo it without charginge me a restocking fee and the next dealer that has it is a big trip away. I want to be educated before i head out. Belles 150A Hot Rod Parasound A23 I was looking into tubes but the heat factor turns me away from them for now. Thanks Eric |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5008 Registered: Feb-05 | The Belles certainly gets rave reviews, will you be getting a quality pre to go with it? |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 280 Registered: Jul-05 | i was thinking about using my ra 1062 as my pre unless there is something that you would suggest that i can look into |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10623 Registered: May-04 | . What's a "Golden Sound Pad"? Sounds kinda k!nky. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10624 Registered: May-04 | . Never mind, I found it on the web. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 281 Registered: Jul-05 | ya i have no idea how well it works or if it even works at all but I got it for $30. so amp help? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10625 Registered: May-04 | . Are the Belles and the Parasound the only choices? If so, have you read anything on either one? If so again, what makes you think one of these two will suit you? "My question is this, which Amp would have an easier time driving the Vandies with clean current, low distortion." From what I see on Sterophile's archives, the Vandersteen is a very simple, easy to drive load for virtually any amplifier. Though it wouldn't sound very good, you could drive these speakers with an $89 Insignia receiver from Best Buy. You sound like you've been reading too much and have become sold on a "rock solid" amplifier that has sufficient current to arc weld with. It's not needed in this application. "Sidebar 3: Measurements My estimate of the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II's voltage sensitivity was 84dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is significantly below average. Its impedance, however, remained between 6 and 8 ohms over almost the entire audioband (fig.1), the only exception being the mid-treble with the treble control set its maximum position, when the impedance dropped to 5 ohms at 6.2kHz and 9kHz. The electrical phase angle is also close to 0° over most of the audioband, meaning that the Vandersteen will be an easy load for an amplifier to drive. This will compensate, to some extent, for its low sensitivity." The only real requirement of the 2ce is that you have sufficient voltage to bring the low sensitivity up to an adequate volume level in your room. Current is hardly required from the amplifier since the impedance is fairly benign and there is no electrical phase angle to draw more than minimal amperage. You will be wasting time and money looking for a high current amplifier to drive this speaker. You might also be sacrificing sound quality by striving for high current. A tube amplifier would be perfect for the Vandersteens. There are a goodly number of tube amps that would mate well with the 2ce's. Otherwise, I would fall back on my constant recommendation, McIntosh. Sell the Rotel (and the car if need be) and buy a Mac integrated amplifier. But that's just what I would prefer, if you decided against tubes. Ideally, I would suggest you buy the current Mac tubed integrated amplifier. You really couldn't do much better. Why are you concerned with heat from a tube amp? They are only moderately warm, for the most part and depending on the particular amplifier, when they are running. I have two Mac tube amps that run so cool I have to check they are on in the winter. I can place my hand on the power transformers of the amplifiers when the floor temp of the room is cool. How many hours a day do you intend to drive this system? What tube amps have you considered? . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 282 Registered: Jul-05 | There was a review floating around with the Belles amp and the Vandersteen 3a and it was an extrememly positive review with good amounts of consumer write ups as well. Well for tube amps i looked into Pacific Creek se300i and the 90i, but for some reason they were very very hot at my dealer. I asked why and he said he didnt know, plus there is tube rolling and bias that has to be dealt with and I have no reference point to begin with with that. That McIntosh looks excellent but its a tad out of my price reach for right now, maybe after im commissioned and get my bonus. Ive also looked into Cary but they are way out of my reach. The most I can spend is about $1600 for a tube but in that price range im worried the amp wont have enough power for the Vandersteens. If you can start to point me in some directions I can start to read up on other tubes. on average i use my system 5-9 hours a day. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10630 Registered: May-04 | . Since I have little to go on other than 84dB speakers and a rough price range, I can't do much other than point in a general direction. You can begin with a used Mac integrated amplifier. They can be had for well under $1500 in excellent shape. I have a MA6200 which is not that far from the sound of my Mac tubes. http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MA6100&nav=cat You can consider a Unison Unico or one of its derivatives. The tubes are only in the pre amp section so there is virtually no heat, no biasing and long life to the tube. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/unisonresearch/unico.html You can try to hear both a Cayin integrated (http://www.vacuumtube.com/cayin.htm) and a Primaluna (http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/205prima/). Both companies run their amplifiers in fixed bias so there are no bias adjustments to make. Both have excellent build quality and very good value. Both bias their power amplifier section on the cool side of tubes, the Primaluna more so. Don't go overboard on a first tube amplifier. You don't need a switch to take negative fedback from the circuit. Nor do you require a switch to turn a pentode into a triode (it doesn't make the amplifier a true triode design so don't bother). Buy enough amplifier to drive your 84dB speakers keeping in mind doubling the wattage will only result in a +3dB increae in level. Buy an amplifier with a decent reputation that you can sell for about what you paid if you buy used. You might find some pleasure in a refurbished vintage amplifier (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/electronics_main.php). There are plenty of sources for used gear that provide good service and good value. http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl Think beyond the average component and you'll probably end up with something satisfying. And, on the other hand, the Belles would be a nice match for the Vandersteens. . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 283 Registered: Jul-05 | So Jan do you think that this jolida would be able to drive the Vandersteens properly? namely the 502 and the 801a http://www.responseaudio.com/jolida%20tube%20amps.htm |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10633 Registered: May-04 | . They have enough power. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 286 Registered: Jul-05 | lol a man of few words well ive got some auditioning and reading to do. thanks for the help on this jan, i think im deffinately going tubes on this one. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 287 Registered: Jul-05 | So I was talking to my buddy today and told him about how i wanted to venture into jolida tube amps but didnt know where to start. He smiles at me and tells me he just upgraded from 102b to the 801a and GAVE me his 102b well i was pretty stoked but when i looked at it the fuse was shot and the tubes were the stock tubes and old. So i took it to my local shop and had them open it up and peek into to find out why the fuse went and the tubes burnt. they couldnt find anything wrong with it so we popped in some new tubes and a new fuse. i bought a matched quad of Sovtek EL84 for the channels and then replaced the pre's with Sovtek 12AX7 and Electro-Harmonics 12AT7. Got it home and used my PS audio power cord and Van den hul cables and biwired them into my vandersteen 2ce sigs. Wow, very impressive little bugger. I know I need to tubes to break in (100 hours) but right off the bat, it really puts my rotel ra 1062 to shame. Not too bad at all for a free tube amp, my costs for the tubes and fuse was $100. Im pretty damned happy. Ill probably end up selling my rotel now but i want to wait to see how they sound broken in |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7670 Registered: Dec-04 | Very impressive, Eric. A good treatment from your dealer as well. A gift for your friend? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10655 Registered: May-04 | . A good deal, for certain, EL. Consider having the amp modified slightly by Response Audio. Nothing major, just clean up a few things. Enjoy the amp but whoever told you tubes require break in time has been smoking some weird cable. The amps warm up and that's how they sound. You might notice a slight improvement if you leave the amps on for 48 hours as this would give the transformers time to warm thoroughly and settle in. Once you power the amp down and let it cool, however, you are right back at the starting point with cold transformers. There may be some gasses that need to burn off in the first few hours of a tube's life span but that is due to the manufacturing process and it has nothing to do with the tube breaking in and it doesn't affect the sound of the amplifier (other than an ocassional small spit or pop that is the gas going away). The speakers will get better over the first few hours, but not the amplifiers. Any further break in is merely the result of your ears getting accustomed to the new sound. Don't venture into tube rolling yet, the tubes you chose are very good for the amp you own. Beware NOS tubes, especially power tubes. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10656 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/119397.html |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 278 Registered: Dec-06 | Ever think about writing a book, Jan? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5020 Registered: Feb-05 | Good luck with the Jolida amp...they are built to break. Must admit though that free is a very good price. If you go looking to buy one at a reasonable price Rogue makes a nice product. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10661 Registered: May-04 | . I'm sure EL appreciates that post, Art. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5023 Registered: Feb-05 | Maybe he will, maybe he won't. It was not meant as anything but information and I would hope that Eric is mature enough to understand even if we all aren't. Glass houses Jan...how many folks per week or day do you upset, usually with nothing more than information directly spoken. No harm meant and hopefully no offense taken. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 290 Registered: Jul-05 | ok thats good to know about the tubes then. Of course no offense taken. I was told by a few others that jolida breaks often but if i found one that had no issues then it would last a while. so no worries Art. Your advice along with Jans is why I come here and ask. I dont take any of this personal since its just a fun hobby for me, in the grand scheme of life its barely even on the register. This is really just my first venture into the world of tubes and from what ive seen so far, there is no turning back for me. Im selling the rotel integrated because of this "revelation" of tube technology. My father came over the other day and saw my tube amp and said "Wow I had something like that 30 years ago when i was in college, guess things do make a full circle dont they?" For now ill tweak this little guy and contact response audio and see what they can do for tweaks without going over board. I know this amp isnt a giant killer. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5026 Registered: Feb-05 | Good to hear Eric...I think it's great that you've discovered a sound that you like, that's what it's about. I really like tubes as well and would like to get another tube integrated some day....enjoy the music! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7674 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, if you are selling the Rotel off to pay for another tube amp, hold off on that a bit. The Rotel is still fresh(yes) and a dealer with both lineups of tubes would be the best bet. Wait with the Rotel(value wont change much, if at all, Rotel is stable in that product for a while), and your trade will still hold value. Keep that, and feel out the tubes, see if it breaks, like. Drive it hard, if you like, you gotta know. Then decide if you need more amp. Fine, if the Jolida is still alive, give it to somebody, get your new one with the Rotel trade. That, and $9.10 will get you a pint at the Toronto airport. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 291 Registered: Jul-05 | i checked with some dealers for some trade ups and they all offered me $300 for it which is insanely low. I have some offers right now for $550 so we will see where that goes. also i bought a voltage meter today and checked all the bias for the amp, my friend has the left side around 11v and the right side over 40v, so i set everything to 20v first, then 30v and found i liked it the most at 40v. I called Jolida and asked them what they recommended and they said 25v is where they put it but that 40v will just take the life of my tubes down a bit, without killing the power supply. any thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7682 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, where were your test points? |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 292 Registered: Jul-05 | bah??? i dont know what you mean by test points |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7683 Registered: Dec-04 | Where are you measuring the voltage? |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 293 Registered: Jul-05 | oh, on the left ground of the speaker posts. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10668 Registered: May-04 | . And where did you place the red probe? |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 294 Registered: Jul-05 | in the corresponding inputs for the tube sections, V2 in section 2 V4 in section 4 etc. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 295 Registered: Jul-05 | well more accurately for V2 V3 in section 2,3 V6 V6 in Section 6,5. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10670 Registered: May-04 | . In other words, where the manual tells you to take measurements. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 296 Registered: Jul-05 | being that I dont have a manual, i dont know. This is what I was told by my dealer and some places online as well. after some more extensive listening 25v seems to be easier on the ears. more relaxed but midrange is nice and smooth. i need to stop fiddling and just enjoy the music |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 298 Registered: Jul-05 | i dont have a manual but my dealer told me this was how to meaure and adjust bias for the the jolida, a few places online said the same. 25v is nicer to have it at, easier on the ears. good midrange. but now i need to stop messing with it and just enjoy the music |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10672 Registered: May-04 | . Look up the EL84's you own on line and see if there are any recommendations for bias setings. Some tubes sound better when they are run slightly hotter than normal while most tubes will do best at the manufacturer's suggested bias voltage. Certainly if you moved from one brand of tube to another in this purchase, make certain you are running the tubes at the correct bias setting. Otherwise, over the long haul, yes, lower bias will almost always make the amp much more friendly to your ears. . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 300 Registered: Jul-05 | good point, ill do some research and post back what i find. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 301 Registered: Jul-05 | i couldnt fine anything for the EL84's except one review which said he put it at 40v, that was all i could find. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10673 Registered: May-04 | . A quick check doesn't give any further information. Here's what I would do, call a Sovtek dealer. Each amplifier will have different bias requirements but you know what Jolida has suggested. Each tube will also have its own requirements and Jolida says you can run the tube as hot as 40V though I wouldn't suggest that long term for the life of the tube or the amplifier. Sound-wise when you run the tube at a hotter bias, you will have a tube that tends to sound more like a transistor. It will break up earlier and harder and its clipping distortion product will sound more like a solid state amplifier. You might be impressed by is apparent speed at first but it will usually get tiring after a short while. If you bias the tube too low you will have a more classic tube sound with a tubbier bass response and slightly rolled off highs. The tube will lack life and the music will tend to plod along. The correct bias for your tubes in your amp is somewhere between these two extremes. For safety and longevity I would always bias on the lower side of good sound. . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 302 Registered: Jul-05 | will do, appreciate your help jan i posted some pics over at audiogon under opinions please of the new setup. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7696 Registered: Dec-04 | Very matter-of-fact, JV. Eric, I will go look now. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7697 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, I don't see it. Link me? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5041 Registered: Feb-05 | I didn't see it either, please provide a link. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5042 Registered: Feb-05 | Found your system Eric...very nice indeed! http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1182648400&read&3&4& |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7705 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, nicely put together, another 1072 fan! Lots to like there. The lower bias might seem a bit warm, the feedback(zero) makes me wonder how that happens, a little global might be what you are looking for? Great thread, keep it going! |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 304 Registered: Jul-05 | So i was reading around the web for different opinions on types of tubes and came across multiple articles talking about the bennefits of JJ/Tesla over Sovtek in all areas and Siemmens as well. then i came across this http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-h.htm so i figured what the heck, why not? I went to thetubestore.com and ordered a matched quad of JJ/Tesla EL84's and two matched JJ/Tesla Ecc83-s (12ax7's) and a Siemmens 12at7. Based on some reviews this is a stellar combo for most amps and it wasnt much money so if it doesnt work out i can always sell them to my buddy who is looking to tube roll. if they turn about to be eye opening then i can still sell him the sovteks and electro harmonics im currently running. i should be getting them on monday or tuesday. thanks for the good words guys! any suggestions are more than welcome. thinking about going vinyl, maybe a p1 or a debutIII with a bellari phone tube amp. any thoughts? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10693 Registered: May-04 | . " ... a little global might be what you are looking for?" ? |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 305 Registered: Jul-05 | im going to have to second jans "?" a little global might be what im looking for? vodka anyone? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10694 Registered: May-04 | . Vodka Global Warming What a stretch! . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 306 Registered: Jul-05 | lol vodka always gets Al Gore going about global warming didnt you know that? |