Whats the point in supertweeters(most of the time)
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 438 Registered: Jan-05 | Ok ok, sounds above 22khz may be absorbed through bones to make music more blablabla. But I just realised something about my tannoy sensys dc1s. Isn't music when produced cut off at a certian point to cut down on file size? So when would supertweeters be used (if to any use at all)-hd sound/sacd/bluray? One of my supertweeters is 'bust' a bit, but I can't notice any difference in sound. So..I think supertweeters are the most part a marketing ploy?? The main reason I got the sensys dc1s was because of the dual concentric design which I've taken a real liking to. Are supertweeters in your opinion just for marketing? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 502 Registered: Apr-06 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/231783.html |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2336 Registered: Dec-06 | I just used a frequency generator and found either my speakers start rolling off at 16khz or my ears do. The absolute highest I could hear at normal volume was 17hz and rising to a peak of around 20khz the louder I turned it up (I did not go crazy with the VC, don't worry). I guess that just goes to show that younger people can hear higher and proves a fact. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10265 Registered: May-04 | . "Isn't music when produced cut off at a certian point to cut down on file size?" Safe to assume you own neither a turntable nor an analog tape deck? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4667 Registered: Dec-03 | Or listened to a live performance. Thank to Stephen for finding that thread. This topic was explored there. Are supertweeters in your opinion just for marketing? Well, the speaker makers might really believe they are useful. They could still be wrong. Good experiment, Andre. Try to some supertweeter speakers and let us know! Best wishes. |
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Silver Member Username: Shane24Post Number: 107 Registered: Mar-07 | like jbl studio L890 series which has Ultra high frequency which they claim realism beyond 40hz the industry standards.... but would there be much of a difference in quality of sound? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10268 Registered: May-04 | . The benefits of a "super" tweeter that can reach beyond audibility will not be as great as the benefits of a speaker system which sounds good to you within your hearing constraints. Buy the speaker that you feel comes closest to reproducing real music and if it has a supertweeter, be happy! If it doesn't, you know you couldn't hear that high anyway. And, yes, supertweeters have potential gains. They are small in the overall scheme of things but they are real and have very much to do with the frequency reponse anomalies and dispersion pattern of the tweeter as it nears its high frequency limit. I posted that on the linked thread, did you read it? If so, what didn't you believe? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10269 Registered: May-04 | . Why don't you think about it in reverse? What are the benefits of a subwoofer which removes (by way of a low pass/high pass filter) a bit of the most difficult response from a woofer? If you understand the real world benefits of a subwoofer, you should easily understand at lest of bit of the benefit of a supertweeter. . |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth ... Post Number: 3557 Registered: May-05 | I suppose this would allow the frequency range breath much wider rather than having restraints on its range. As for hearing this range above 16KHz there's no point unless you're a bat of course! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2077 Registered: Sep-04 | I met with a group of colleagues at a loud and busy restaurant recently. The subject of hifi and hearing came up. At a point during the proceedings this really loud and nasty high pitched whine fired up and I desperately asked what the hell that was, identifying it as one of my colleagues' mobile phone which he had been fiddling with. He and a couple of others were quite surprised at my reaction (I found it quite painful). Most of the people at the table (8 of us) hadn't heard it. My colleague explained that it's a signal to be used on children to grab their attention and that most adults shouldn't be able to hear it. I'm 42 years old and the whine is meant to be well outside my hearing range for my age. Some years ago, I had my hearing tested because sometimes I don't catch spoken words. The hospital declared me positively average. So either the hospital got it wrong or the powers-that-be that say we humans can't hear that well and that our hearing tails off as we grow older are wrong. So don't give up on your hearing just yet. Furthermore, ISTR there were some tests in the early 90's which proved that the middle ear is susceptible to sounds up to about 80khz, which is within the remit of many supertweeters. I have used Townshend supertweeters on a few occasions and my results with them have been variable. On some occasions I can't believe how much difference they made, on others I can't tell a difference. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth ... Post Number: 3560 Registered: May-05 | Don't forget the hospital as a, standardization for the auditory test under certain conditions and the mobile phone more than likely exceed this range where you're the only one who's acceptable to this frequency range. It must have had a pinching sound affect on the ear yes? |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 184 Registered: Jan-07 | If your speaker reproduces the full (or even close to full) audio spectrum, a supertweeter is only useful to your dog. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6926 Registered: Dec-04 | Inaudible sounds do not make them unimportant. The rolloff and blending of a supertweet can have an effect on listening. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6927 Registered: Dec-04 | Particularly if it goes LOW enough. |
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Silver Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 157 Registered: Mar-06 | How about this experiment: Use one speaker, super-tweeter equipped. Play the same composition on it, once with the higher frequencies included and once without. If its possible to identify and like the program material with high frequencies, a case for super-tweeter would be made, no? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6930 Registered: Dec-04 | With a mono signal, it's closer. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 439 Registered: Jan-05 | Thank You for the replies. I did read the thread and I understand. Its a debatable topic. After all its only a supertweeter and not a tweeter but I can understand why some speaker companies will use them now. The Tannoys dual concentric design really proves something there on the other hand. To answer your question Jan, no I dont have a tapedeck or turntable. I'm really interested to have the experiment Andre did, but with a supertweeter to see what it picks up. What you mentioned Frank is interesting. I have done a test with my soundcard and i can barely hear above 15.2khz (i can test up to 20khz). This frequency is quite irritating so anything above it would presumably just be as irritable. I'll put my opinion forward though, I think supertweeters are mostly there for marketing purposes. If they were not there I dont think I'd notice. I have to say they do look cool though. I'll agree with Nucks point that they can have a benefit if they go low enough to integrate with the higher end of a normal tweeter if theres a roll off there. But I can't really see more point than that. Why dont we create supersubwoofers? And off the topic..About half an hour ago I decided to see what itd be like to use my wharfedales as my 'rears' with my cambridge amp from speaker B outputs. Its a crude form of surround sound but to be honest with you I find music is much more enjoyable. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 444 Registered: Jan-05 | I'll ammend my off topic statement. Stereo is better. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2337 Registered: Dec-06 | Wouldn't they be called infra-subwoofers? After all, subwoofers are already SUB-woofers.  Supertweeter=higher than tweeter and usually supersonic Subwoofer= lower than woofer Infra-Subwoofer=infrasonic range (or so; <30hz only subwoofer) That's the way I see it anyhow. http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 357 Registered: May-06 | Andre, Perhaps worth mentioning about your "Infra-Subwoofer" Rotary Woofer Pricing: TRW-17 transducer $12,900.00 Motor Controller $350.00 Amplifier and crossover $700.00 Design and installation, typical $8,000-$12,000* Total $21,950-$25,950 |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2340 Registered: Dec-06 | Yeah. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/304427.html |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 189 Registered: Jan-07 | Yeah, Nuck. But if you can't hear it, what real difference can it make? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6953 Registered: Dec-04 | JBJ, not everything that can be counted is worth counting, and never discount anything-Einstein. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 445 Registered: Jan-05 | Thats a lot of money for one speaker. Pointless, just get a bigger subwoofer in that case. 'in room response' of my subwoofer is 18hz. On paper, in testing 30-40hz is its limit, so ruark/mja is lieing there . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10288 Registered: May-04 | . "But if you can't hear it, what real difference can it make?" To put it politely, this is a comment made by someone who hasn't "heard" what extending the frequency range of reproduced sound can achieve. I'm not picking a fight, but extending the lower and upper response regions will open the sound and allow it to be more similar to reality. It is not easily demonstrated and not easily "heard" unless you listen for transparency and a shift toward reality. If these are not qualities high on your list of priorities or if they are unfamiliar to you in real life, you could easily dismiss their benefits and advantages. Not easily demonstrated because most "sub"-woofers are not truly very good at anything beneath 50Hz. Adding bass response down to the sub 20Hz range will give a foundation to the sound that opens up the reproduction and adds transparency where it is most beneficial. I'm not talking subway trains under the venue or Andre's idea of subwoofers for more bass (sorry, Andre, but you're missing the point with your IB subs, you have to get the middle right first). This is more like Nelson Pass's concept of a subwoofer; http://www.passdiy.com/speakers.htm, and it is quite expensive and space consuming. On the high frequency side, the cost is not as great due to the wavelengths and the amount of acoustic power required, but the benefits are similar. Transparency and openess, i.e. realism, are the major rewards for such wideband response. Still the gains are typically out of proportion to the cost and if you don't know what you're missing, you are unlikely to miss it. Whether a speaker has a supertweeter or not is a poor reason to buy a particular speaker and a supertweeter attached to a poor design is mere marketing. Get the middle right first! . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2350 Registered: Dec-06 | It's fine. I just haven't experienced what you're talking about yet and I possibly will this week when I go to the high-end shop (Classe on B&W or something? It's my choice to hear) and listen to some good recordings this Monday. I'll let you know if I experience something I haven't experienced before. My point of a sub is the make it more realistic in the first place. You'd have to be here and listen with me to tell me what I'm trying to hear and what I'm looking for since I just can't pick it out on my own. My system just doesn't have enough bass below 100hz and I don't know if you'd consider the amount of bass I have currently under or over what is recommended (it basically sounds thin and I know it's not just the bass). I want the IB to extend into the 10-20hz area with authority so that I can capture the ambience and "air" of a concert hall or the recording studio. That'd be nice. It'd also be nice to add to the other end of the spectrum to do the same with guitars and other instruments with ultrasonic harmonics. I really am facing quite a decision since all I can choose between are Classe (can't afford), Rotel, Marantz, and Pioneer in the way of amplification; B&W, Paradigm, and ML are speaker choices. A sub is ruled out for the moment as the subs I can buy there aren't worth the money as I could get a sub with much higher value for the money. I'm worried about if I get speakers it'll show the weaknesses of the Yamaha and if I get a receiver if it will benefit the sound much or not without considering the speakers. My goal is to capture the realism and "you are there" experience from the system and I would expect the speakers to make the biggest difference in that region and so I'm leaning toward a speaker pair (not sure what would be good in $1000 range), but I know that the receiver itself may not be capable of that very much so. All the tradeoffs are annoying. I might know when I finally make my trip in to the store with my speaks to test it out. I hope I wasn't too off topic, but I was covering the things about audio and it has to be balanced and it's all about balance usually, etc.  |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 193 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, there you go again with your assumptions and idiocy. You have no idea what I have heard. You can only comment on what you have heard. Now if you consider that name calling, more power to you. One of your problems is you have difficulty dealing with straight facts. You have a knack for twisting them. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6973 Registered: Dec-04 | One yokul's opinion. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6974 Registered: Dec-04 | Jones are you even reading the same things that everybody else is?!? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10290 Registered: May-04 | . FOJBJ |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 194 Registered: Jan-07 | Nuck, read the thread title and decide that for yourself, if you can, without the guidance of your God, JV. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 508 Registered: Apr-06 | "Whether a speaker has a supertweeter or not is a poor reason to buy a particular speaker" Nuff said. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2089 Registered: Sep-04 | On the subject of the super-subwoofer, as I recall, the resonant frequency of certain sphincter muscles that control bowel movement is of the order of 3hz or so. Therefore, in theory, if the output of a super-subwoofer at or around 3hz were strong enough, a listener could have a rather awful moment! Allegedly, the TRW-17 can go down to 1hz. I wonder if they've had any ... moments? As to supertweeters, most have a performance envelope from about 17khz upwards. This means they can work in the usual operating range and therefore theoretically should have a direct impact in the sound reproduction of a speaker. However, very very few instruments have a fundamental frequency. In fact most natural instruments have fundamental frequencies varying between 500hz and 6khz. Even a violin's highest fundamental frequency is only about 8khz. Therefore, in the high teens all we're hearing are harmonics of the fundamentals most of the time. harmonics are usually a good bit lower in strength than their corresponding fundamental, so one wonders whether one can hear them at all. I guess if one developed a speaker with a fullrange driver such as a Jordan JX92S which can go from 80hz to 17khz, then one could skip the use of a tweeter and just use a supertweeter instead. Not sure if this is helping at all... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Shane24Post Number: 124 Registered: Mar-07 | Hi Frank like to hear ur opinion under category Amps-Thread(denon pma 500 ae integrated amp) thnks.......... |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 450 Registered: Jan-05 | "Whether a speaker has a supertweeter or not is a poor reason to buy a particular speaker" Nuff said. I'll second that statement. Actually Frank, the 3hz thing is something I heard about too. A test subject was placed in a testing room and a frequency that affected the bowels made him..well. Crap himself basically in the nicest sense. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7011 Registered: Dec-04 | Jones the moment you prove yourself capable of useful insight, a modicum of technical knowledge or a tad of integrity, then I will worship you. The same way I worship the white porcelin alter. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 452 Registered: Jan-05 | Do you worship me Nuck? |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 197 Registered: Jan-07 | "FOJBJ" Jan Vigne Considering the source, there can only be one response to such a cryptic acronym: ABCDEFG,HIJKSOB. Nuck, the last thing I seek is worship from you or anyone else. I find megalomania distasteful. Frank's post basically confirms my observation. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 165 Registered: Dec-06 | Just once I'd like to see JimBob defend his position with facts. Or science. Or white papers. Or a dry erase board. Or anything besides attacks and name calling. Your debate skills suck dumbass. You sensitive little ninny. I think it's time you take up a different hobby. Crochet? Bridge? Something where you can stay closer to mom. You're an idiot. To the regulars here- I apologize for my post. I've had enough of this mindless twit. And now back to your regular programming. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7026 Registered: Dec-04 | stryvn, this ultra-maroon can't produce a fact to save his life, and his reference material likely has pop-up pictures. Troll. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2091 Registered: Sep-04 | Jim Bob, My post was not intended to confirm your observation, nor am I sure that it does. What I meant was that there is a lot going on that can obscure the output of the higher frequencies. I did not say that you can't hear it. Furthermore, we know that many people can't hear bass below 40hz but they can certainly feel it. If you consider that and consider the earlier post I made where I pointed out that the middle ear is sensitive to frequencies as high as 80khz, one can surmise that we can perceive these higher frequencies, even if we can't necessarily hear them in the traditional sense. The fact is, we don't really know whether these frequencies can make our perception change. Some people perceive differences with the supertweeters on, some don't - and in my case sometimes yes, sometimes no <shrug>. Either way, there is no point in being dogmatic about it. If dogma ruled the world, we wouldn't have most of our belief systems, the earth would still be flat, the world would be even more warlike, many more people would be dying because of the lack of penecillin which would have been thrown out as old mold. So lighten up and just accept the fact that other people can hear things you don't, and you probably hear things that others don't. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7030 Registered: Dec-04 | Hear,hear! |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 199 Registered: Jan-07 | Frank, your advice would be better spent on Nuck and his crowd. Those are the dogmatic posters. Stryvn, love your post. Good facts, science, white papers and all the things you cherish. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 166 Registered: Dec-06 | I don't claim to be the wise one here. That's your area of expertise you stupid fcuking nimrod. Say something other than "Jan is wrong". Until then, go away Sallie. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7035 Registered: Dec-04 | Jones is having a great time rilin' us all up. He sits back and figgurs he is having a long distance pising contest with text on a page, and getting people to respond to his taunts. Well, thankfully, we are actual audio enthusiasts, with a knowledge base and a contact group to confer with, while JBJ confers with his very tightly clenched right hand. I don't mind the trolls, just an exercise in making snappy answers, in fact. So go ahead, Jones, fire away. You know when the ever ecumical and polite FA gives you a nudge that you are just a troll, and worth only imaginative pot shots. The same reason you are here, obviously. And when you get tired of this little unmoderated corner of the online world, you can always go back to wiping the keyboard with your untrousered shirt, after wanking your one eyed troused mouse, watching some MILF do things you can only dream about. Much like quality audio. Dream on fly-boy. Gosh that was fun. I think I'll have a beer! |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 201 Registered: Jan-07 | Nuck, sing the new alphabet song and go on your merry way. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7058 Registered: Dec-04 | Gee, are you ever smart. Does all the negative posting enthrall you? See I hit the bone on the head Troll. You will disappear soon, like the others I have described above, until you pick another name. Buh Bye, Troll. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 456 Registered: Jan-05 | Why do I feel like the most mature poster here? I bet I'm the youngest too. Jimbob has made his point that he doesnt like Jan. So has everyone else given an opinion. Lets all go to the pub and beer isnt on me (yet(money)). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7066 Registered: Dec-04 | fair nuff, so long as you have some mind to audio. Jones can bring peanuts, or knowledge, same thing. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2364 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm wondering why you can't just forget about it. I don't feel like going into a silly little paragraph with a bunch of reasoning and...ah whatever. I'm not for or against anybody here and don't plan to be. I don't even know why I even posted. My point of posting was... I made a test tone CD and headed towards the local high end shop. I found my speakers started rolling off at 16khz and I can actually hear up to 18khz before rolloff...although it hurts to hear it. I also tried the 20khz+ tones. I didn't hear anything but it gave me a headache when I cranked it. Mind you this was on a pair of B&W 800D's; good speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 457 Registered: Jan-05 | There you go. Andre you just proved 18hz hurts. Then 20hz gives you a headache. So a supertweeter would probably make your eyes explode eventually (if you COULD ACTUALLY hear it)! Think of it like this, ever at a gig/concert and get a headache or irratable to high frequencies especially feedback. Then less high frequency is benefitial how I see it. There not enough reason for a supertweeter other than to create that 'live' experience which I personally think is bollocks. That's not how I listen to music and the same goes for most people. Peanuts away! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10316 Registered: May-04 | . How much high frequency signal is too much? Where would you begin rolling off high frequencies and by how much? Did you ever consider it's not the amount of high frequency content that bothers you at a live event? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4669 Registered: Dec-03 | There not enough reason for a supertweeter other than to create that 'live' experience which I personally think is bollocks. Personally, I am aiming for accurate reproduction of the original sound. It seems to me there is not much point in reproducing frequencies that did not form part of that. If I understand correctly, Jan's point is that frequencies that we cannot hear directly nevertheless have some effect on the sound that we can hear. If this is true, then we should be able to hear the difference between sound reproduced with and without those frequencies. Certainly we can hear difference tones -- virtual sounds with frequencies that are the difference between between two frequencies, like the beats caused by notes that are out of tune. It's always seemed to me that the microphone will capture difference tones, too, so where the frequency subtraction goes on -- before or after playback -- should not make much difference. Really, this calls for a demonstration, not arguments. I also think going down the pub to talk about it is a good idea, but that is not practical, either, unfortunately. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 167 Registered: Dec-06 | Really, this calls for a demonstration, not arguments. I also think going down the pub to talk about it is a good idea, but that is not practical, either, unfortunately. Yes, John, but common sense gets thrown out the window when JimBob Idiotpants joins the conversation. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 517 Registered: Apr-06 | "Personally, I am aiming for accurate reproduction of the original sound. It seems to me there is not much point in reproducing frequencies that did not form part of that. " But they do form a part of that, unless you feel that harmonics suddenly stop at 20kHz. Supertweeters will *directly* affect frequencies that we hear. Most aren't crossed in at 20kHz, nor is a crossover a brick wall. Much like a subwoofer helps a woofer extend bass, a supertweeter will help extend treble. I expect this would have significant benefits for a concentric design, which likely has dispersion problems at higher frequencies. As far as beyond 20kHz sound, I would agree with the demonstration part. I would bet that most wouldn't notice a difference at all, but who really knows. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 458 Registered: Jan-05 | Good points. Yes I did consider that it may not just be high frequences. Sheer volume is one. I'll rephrase what I said then. Minus the fact I can't directly hear anything above 16khz I cant see the point based on that basic fact. With a subwoofer which extends bass, I CAN hear it. I think the entirity of a speaker as you hear it is the deciding factor as proved when I said I prefer my diamond 8.1s that cost me £70 compared to the sensys dc1s worth far far more. Of course this could be because of my amp and source. But I've not compared much equipment. Maybe one day we could have a pub do with all the classic ecoustics members. Thing is it'll have to be some kind of virtual pub thing :S |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 523 Registered: Apr-06 | James, the problem with your argument is you don't even need to consider frequencies beyond 16kHz to witness effect of a supertweeter. In the case of the Tannoy speaker, the crossover to the supertweeter is at 16kHz. This does not mean that under 16kHz, the supertweeter ceases to function. According to the literature, it is using a 1st order crossover in this region. This means that the supertweeter will roll off at 6dB per octave. Effectively, the supertweeter will only be down 6dB at 8kHz. That will certainly have an effect on the sound. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 459 Registered: Jan-05 | I didnt know that. Thanks for the info, I suppose it explains why I thought they were upfront sounding but not shrill. I think the actual tweeter did most of that job though because when I covered the supertweeters up I couldnt notice. Well anyway I dont care anymore now. I have my final stretch of Alevel exams to do. Then i can chill out =D Happy listening folks! |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 204 Registered: Jan-07 | Only your dogs will know for sure. Superman might also pick it up. But the rest of you-no way. |
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