HK 3380 regarded as a pretty good 2 channel reciever, but then with its many features, isnt this better than a dedicated 2 channel integrated which could cost about the same?
Just to be curious, whats the take up on the HK 970 2 channel integrated? Heard its as good as the ca azur range, but not sure about being able to connect a subwoofer..
JJ, disregarding loss leaders and close-outs, a receiver with lots of effects, features etc. will have money(and presumably interest) in the hockey-card-in-the-spokes effect, rather than in the power supplies, where it matters.
High quality internal wiring, output devices and POWER SUPPLY are where the quality stereo is. The rest is pick and choose what you like.
A sub with speqaker level inputs will work with anything. The 970 may have pre-outs, suitable for a sub. If it has dual pre-outs, then low level sub inputs are available.
So in that case the power supply of any unit is so important you would recommened buying a more upmarket power cable? Im not saying I wouldnt do this. And as comparing the HK to something like CA, are you implying that CA concentrate on the internal wiring and power supply or is the general point of dedicated amp companies-they have a better build quality?
First, let's discuss your orignal question. You are asking us to make an assessment of what is "better" for you. That's something we can't do, only you can decide which product suits your needs and desires. Should you find the features of the receiver useful, or even just interesting, enough to warrant further consideration, then possibly the receiver will best suit those needs and desires. Often the assumption made on this forum is that everyone is always after the best sound they can afford. That's not always the case and there are certainly instances where certain features can be perceived as helping you get the most out of your system - as it fits into your scheme of how you want your audio system to operate.
However, I think you'll find many people who've been through the mill on audio products will urge everyone to get the best sound quality no matter the rest of your needs. In other words, place sound above all else and button and knob features second or even third. Features come and go and more often than not eventually go unused as you find they become more of a burden to operate than the benefits you assumed would amount to.
Receiver buyers tend to fall into the group of consumers who manufacturers love because of their endless fascination with technology, which in the case of most receivers means features. So, the ideal receiver customer for a company is the person who must stay up to date on features and considers most receivers to be more or less about the same in terms of sound quality. Or, a receiver owner might possibly be the person who never really sits down to listen to music but, instead, uses music as a background filler. For this casual listener, a basic receiver is probably a good choice, if it suits their needs. Obviously, needs and desires vary with the customer and I've sold $50k systems to people who don't want to see any piece of equipment and $1k systems to people who are quite serious about hearing every detail they can extract from their music.
Should you be after the best sound quality possible, the number of good choices in receivers shrinks dramatically. There are a few receivers which still garner good reviews when it comes to sound quality, HK being one of them. But manufacturers long ago realized most receiver buyers are more willing to be sold the front panel and remote than the internals of the product. This is typically where the "high end" audio company deviates from the accepted big box approach to selling, and consequently, building their product. High end companies instruct their sales staffs to sell what's inside as much as the sound that the amplifier produces. Features are related to sound quality and not so much the convenience of the listener. Selling such a product to the average buyer is not an easy thing to do as many people today have no concept of what sounds good other than what they prefer. Which could easily be Bose or Symphonic. Distiguishing between HK and CA than becomes a matter of choosing one from this column and another from some other column. If you don't have a fairly clear idea what constitutes "better" sound quality for you, you will have a difficult time hearing whether HK is as good, or even better, than CA. Both companies are successful at selling their approach to sound. Don't get hung up on a name plate. Determine what it will take to improve your sound and go for that sound.
So, how does a salesperson demonstrate how one product differs from another when selling sound quality? Well, it varies from salesperson to salesperson but I always wished I could take the top cover off most of the amplifiers I ever sold. I would have perferred to show a client the layout of the internals, the choice of parts and attention to detail in the design and construction. Most of all, I would have preferred to show them the power supply because, when you get down to the way an amplifier operates, they are all just modulated power supplies. As the signal varies, the power supply must provide the voltage and current in response to the demands of the music. As a rule, the more money the manufacturer is willing to put into these unseen pieces of power supply and circuit design, the better the chance the manufacturer cares most about the sound quality and not so much the convenience features. (Until a few years ago, most high end audio compaies avoided remote controls to keep system noise to a minimum.) Unfortunately, most clients wouldn't know whether what I was showing them was a capacitor, a transformer or a diode. One good generic rule you can use to guess at the quality of a component, however, is the weight of an amplifier. Large amperage transformers weigh more than the light stuff that populates a receiver filled with low voltage, IC driven features. Weight is not a hard and fast rule of quality as there are new construction techniques which make weight not as much of an issue, but, if it weighs more, it probably sounds better. Insist on a demonstartion of what amplifier you are considering and decide for yourself which one sounds better. Also, remember that features are likely to stop operating. If reliability is one of your desires, then the fewer the features, the better the chance the amplifier will stay in your home and not in the shop.
You can decide how important any of this is to you.
Discussing the power supply has little to do with the choice of power cable. The choice of a "better" quality power cable has more to do with the quality of the AC voltage in your home than anything directly related to the amplifier. As the power grids of many communities have become stretched to their limits and the number of electronic devices in any one home has grown to quantities unthought of even a decade ago, the incoming AC has become less reliable in its quality. Aftermarket power cables are one answer to this dilema.
Will you hear an improvement with a better power cable? Or, even with a "better" amplifier? That is a decision you must make based on how you will use the system and your listening habits. If I were you, I would be working with a shop that could demonstrate the audible differences between components. Unless, that is, you are more interested in being sold the face plate and remote.
Sound comes over looks and features to a certain extent. I for one AM looking for sound as you'd have guessed in the discussion about tube amps and my rather tiring quest without having heard anything. Features such as bass and treble control dont bother me, any 'filling in' in the sound I can do precisely through my soundcard.
Interesting about needs and desires how you wrote about what you've sold to certain people. I do a lot of (most) listening whilst sat at my computer so at the moment pretty close to the speakers. I listen to the music. Sometimes I listen from from the other side of my room, about 9ft away and music tends to be more enjoyable actually since Im not so close. For space limitations, 2.1 is my limit. And I dont want a muli-channel reciever with small surround speakers, ergh! I was asking about the 2 channel recievers and you gave me a good answer, figuring they're no match for real amps. Which makes sense, I just wondered how good HK were!
I have to agree totally and from the heart about how many people dont have any idea what sounds good and what they prefer. This is where I like the sound of my diamonds because they sound good but I know that I prefer something that isnt there. Im confident a decent amp will reveal this.
Your mention on reliability-this is important to me. I've heard good things about the sound of the azur series, much to my liking of what Im after (supposedly), but some negative things about the build quality of them. And well I suppose showing customers what inside a unit will bore and loose interest from some customers. Humans=lazy and dont care whats inside an amp i suppose lol.
Im glad the power supply cable issue is sorted. To me I couldnt think how a better cable would improve the bass etc of an amp, but electricity quality makes sense.
I have exams In January. Decided Im getting and Ipod for xmas so after my exams in January I WILL DEFINATELY go to sheffield and find richer sounds and demand some demos.
I must thankyou Jan for the time you've put into replying to my posts. I appreciate it.
I shall tell you something though. Today I had a long think about some equipment my Dad sold when I was about 10. I remember the sound was very good, it was controlled and balanced, not too in your face. Then....ARCAM!! It was, and now I cant believe he sold his whole system (including 2 large bookshelfs) for £150! . You might know these amplifiers, I think it was an integrated amp from the Alpha series, maybe the a5/6/7/8 =s It was black. If you've heard these amps could you give your opinion? Also, and maybe an unfair comparison, how would you rate these amps to, yes again the azur range.
On a second note, would you reccomend any new Arcam integrated amps. A quick look on ebay brings back some good deals. You suggested audiogon in another topic, I live in the UK! Id rather not buy from abroad.
Also at my gym, I've noticed how detailed and what a great tweater the speakers have. They're lenient to the high end. They're B&W leisure monitors LM1, in a 4 way configuration each facing away from eachother and hanging from a ceiling. Theres 4 of these, so altogether 16 of them. Just though I'd share it with you.
Hi JJ. I am fairly certain that Jan did not rec any product. If you are hot for the Arcam, Frank Abela is a good contact here.
I must presume that you are planning for the future from here, as you have a lovely little listening space already, and you are looking at big pieces to fill your needs.
JJ - I only know Arcam from what I read in the English press. As far as I know, they don't have any presence here in the US. Their products seem to garner good reviews and are almost always in the comparison lists of must-listen-to amplifiers.
Think about what you feel is important in conveying the spirit of music and listen to a few pieces in a good shop. I'm sure you'll do fine. If possible, maybe you should ask your dad for some advice.
My Dad knows bugger all about audio. Seriously, he paid over 2k for that system back in the day and what a mistake it was him selling it. I only wish he knew what he was doing. All arcam seperates gone, no wonder the buyer was grinning. Going on that very system, and I must admit I did like it: The bass isnt too heavy and there is an open sound, just as the newer a65 is described. It is also described as detailed which is important to me, I may bid for an a65 on ebay and end my missery.
. You might know these amplifiers, I think it was an integrated amp from the Alpha series, maybe the a5/6/7/8 =s It was black. If you've heard these amps could you give your opinion? Also, and maybe an unfair comparison, how would you rate these amps to, yes again the azur range.