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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 1 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello, I hope you don't mind me starting a new thread here. I'm new to this forum and I may be one of the few users with a full kit of original parts - INCLUDING A COMPLETE SET OF MANUALS FOR BOTH THE DECK AND THE CARTRIDGE/STYLUS. If I can help with these just give me a shout. Here's my problem .............. After serious testing I have concluded that I am suffering one of 3 faults. Essentially, the LH channel is only delivering a weak signal to the amplifier. Possible problems are, in most likely order ..... 1. The connections between the stylus and the cartridge are faulty, I have tried all combinations of connections and can move the issue from channel to channel by swapping the record deck inputs at the amplifier. I have also swapped the cartridge/stylus connections at the cartridge and can switch the single working channel from right (working into the amp) to left (silent at the amp). I have also disconnected the right (working) channel at the stylus and the system becomes totally silent at the amplifier. 2. The stylus has worn out. Probably not the problem since when the right channel is playing the stylus appears to be delivering quality sound through either (but only one at a time) channel. 3. The cartridge contacts in the tone arm are not making correctly I cannot get at these contacts to check them out. Possibly the problem ... Any ideas ? 4. The signal cable to the amplifier is faulty I have thoroughly 'massaged' the signal cables from deck plinth to amplifier and cannot detect any issue with the cable. Short of a misconnect inside the plinth, this seems to be an unlikely source, since the whole system was working OK up to about 3 months ago. The issue has only occurred after I carefully disconnected the deck from my HIFI, carried it gently to the office and connected it to my PC to do some ripping. I have a pre amp that delivers a signal from a cassette tape via the preamp to the PC sound card (I only did this to check the circuits) but NOTHING from the record deck. When I moved the record deck back to the HIFI amplifier, to verify the original setup, I was astonished to find that no input signal at all was obtainable. So ... I dismantled the cartridge/stylus assembly and opened and remade all 4 signal connections. The Right Channel came back good and strong but I have still almost nothing from the record deck's LEFT channel. I can just hear it with the HIFI amplifier on full left balance and maximum volume. The PC works fine and I can set it up to play tapes and record CDs Any comments anyone might care to make and supply/suggestions/prices for cartridge and/or stylus would be appreciated. Kind regards, Barrie Etherington MILLGATE RESOURCES |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9355 Registered: May-04 | . Thank God the PC still works! B.E. - You've got me confused. Your three possible faults include four possibilities. Your explanation of how you deduced #1 as a possibility would not necessarily prove the assumption made in #1, though, if I understand correctly, you would have ruled out the "amplifier" as a cause of the problem. I also have no idea how you would disconnect the working channel "at the stylus". A big piece of gaffer's tape? As to #2, a worn stylus will not result in a lower level in one channel nor would it appear suddenly after moving the table. #3 is a problem I don't understand. The Dual arm has several points of contact that can oxidize and this is most often the problem with Duals that do not function properly. However, I don't understand why you cannot get to the contacts you suspect. While it may take some effort to get to all the contact points in a Dual table, the good thing is you can. #4 is something I think you have not explored sufficiently. Massaging the cables to where they exit the plinth still leaves several possible problem areas untouched. There are several inches of interconnect cable inside the base of the table and I'm not clear whether you worked hard enough to determine if the cable might be defective or have a bad contact under the plinth. The cable is fixed in place with a strain relief as it exits the base but there are connections at the under side of the plinth which could be oxidized. I'm unclear as to what you are calling the plinth. The plastic/wood base or the metal plinth? Did you pull the plinth away from the base to do your massaging? A cartridge that produces weak sound in the left channel when both channels are connected has no reason to go completely silent when only the working channel is disconnected. I'm not clear as to the order of your connection swapping in order to trace the problem. "Essentially, the LH channel is only delivering a weak signal to the amplifier. "When I moved the record deck back to the HIFI amplifier, to verify the original setup, I was astonished to find that no input signal at all was obtainable. See, now I don't know whether your problem is a weak channel or no signal at all. Finally, I am unfamiliar with a TKS 49S cartridge. I have never heard of this brand of cartridge. TKS? Is that the cartridge manufacturer? Was this posssibly a house brand cartridge you bought with the table? Let's start with a few facts. A worn stylus does not give a weak signal. A worn stylus gives a distorted signal. A worn out suspension on the cantilever can give weak sound in one or both channels and this would be consistent with a cartidge that was purchased with a table about twenty years ago. You can replace the stylus assembly on vitually any cartridge that would have been fit to a Dual 505 arm. Merely track down a TKS dealer to buy a new stylus assembly. Oxidized connections normally go intermittent or completely missing but can act as a resistor and give a weak signal in one channel. Oxidation and cold solder joints are common problems in Daul tables. The repair is a complete tune up by a competent technician. The tech will check for oxidation and poor solder joints. If you can get to all the connection points in the table, you can perform the same service. This involves cleaning every connection from the cartridge pins to the interconnect jacks and plugs on the amplifier. You have to pull the plinth from the base and get underneath to check all the possible problem areas on a Dual. You'll need to remove the "C" clip that holds the platter to the plinth in order to accomplish this sort of tune up. Be very careful, if you haven't already managed to do this, as most people send the clip flying across the room and then have nothing to secure the platter back down to the plinth. If you don't feel confident doing this service or don't understand how to get at the various connection points on a Dual, I would suggest you take the table to a technician. The lead outs for a Dual table are quite flimsy and can easily be broken by pulling them from a connection. If the leads are broken at the molded plugs, you can replace the plugs with decent parts and cut the interconnect back a few inches. Better yet is to replace the stock Dual lead out with a better quality cable running from the under side of the plinth to the amplifier. These are solder joints on the under side and should only be replaced by someone who knows how to solder well. If you tend to leave globs of solder on the connection, let a pro do the job. If you want to attempt this tune up by yourself, I would suggest the following order doing one thing at a time to ensure you know what is affecting the sound. 1) No, to low, cost. Do a complete clean up of the table. Clean every connection point from cartridge pins to amplifier jacks. 2) Moderate cash outlay. Buy a new stylus assembly. 3) More money but makes more sense after twenty years. Better yet buy a new cartridge. While cartridges don't normally wear out, there are much better cartridges for the Dual today than what your TKS probably is today. Anyone selling cartridges should be able to guide you towards a proper replacement cartridge to fit the Dual. If you don't feel comfortable aligning the cartridge and setting the tracking force and anti-skating, have a shop do this for you. 4) Might as well do this one too. Replace the lead out cable from the under side of the plinth to the amplifier. Use a low capacitance cable to ensure the best sound from your cartridge. Keep the length to no more than a meter. While you are at it, buy a new drive belt for the table also. If you want to try the most likely suspect, buy a new cartridge. A complete tune up is in order after all these years, but a new cartridge is where you are most likely going to find your solution to this problem. This should get you up and running until you can find a tech to work on the table. For troubleshooting tips specific to Dual tables, look through a few of the archived threads related to Dual tables and you'll find a Dual web page. . |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 2 Registered: Nov-06 | What a tremendous response !! Thanks a million. I feel more like the gas turbine engineeer I was trained to be, 40 years ago, than a record deck/cartridge specialist as you certainly are. Just for the record I only found the difference between 'no signals' and a 'weak LH channel' when I set the HIFI amplifier balance to max LH channel and full volume. I continued with my investigations after making the original post, and found a very helpful guy in the US who was a Dual dealer. He gave several Dual alternatives to the TKS 49S I have here. Incidentally the 'TKS 49S' is the original Dual cartridge and stylus assembly fitted when I bought the product in the early to mid 1990's. He also calmly told me that a new 49S would cost $158 and he calmly justified this by equating that to the price of a new Dual CS 505-4 today at over $800 US !!! Just as you have recommended; I too had concluded that my first step was a new cartridge and stylus - but certainly not at $158 US. I can get a whole deck replacement almost any day on eBay for something upwards of £50; but I would rather like to repair my Dual. So ... the hunt is on for a sensibly priced replacement cartridge and stylus, somewhere this side of the pond. Any ideas, please ? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9356 Registered: May-04 | . Are you going to do the cartridge set up yourself? |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello Jan, Yes ... I think I can do that since the instructions in the manual are clear and I've already done it a couple of times whilst testing to solve the LH channel issue. I have tracked down two sources for the Stylus (one of them also for a possible whole cartride + stylus replacement). I've been sent this link ( http://www.rotor.eu/indexzoek.php?zoekart=ATN%203600 ) to show the article but I'm rather suspicious of its capability to match the Dual 505-1 tonearm. I've asked for confirmation. Any comments you can offer will be much appreciated - and thanks for your continuing interest. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9359 Registered: May-04 | . I suspect you had a version of some Audio Technika cartridge as the original on your table. They are a good moderately priced choice for your arm. You can also look at Grado's and Ortofons. The Ortofons are what the Dual arm was designed to accommodate and they have a well thought out line of low mass, high compliance cartridges/styli for the Dual arm. They would be my first recommendation though they tend to have slightly lower output voltage than the AT's. . |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 4 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello Jan, Indeed the removeable part of my cartridge and the stylus holder do have Ortofon logos on them. One source here in the UK offers an 'as new' combination - but he's proving VERY difficult to deal with. Another - who says he has 20+ years of working experience with Ortofon itself (and is an Ortofon distributor today) swears that the products are no longer available. A third contact - in the Netherlands - is testing his supply line for a product. In the meantime - the angels are not on my side here - I had just dismantled and rebuilt the Dual 505-1 deck and heard a complete two channel result ... when the jewel in the pickup fell out; and I lost it !!! Heigh Ho ! Let me thank you for staying with me here. A friend has just given me a record player called a SONY PX-LX60P which was part of a Compact Hi-Fi Stereo System called an XO-D70CD built in the late '90's. If I can figure out how to power it I'll have a solution. I already simulated connection to my PC by rotating the platter by hand !! Please wish me luck - and thanks again !!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9367 Registered: May-04 | . The Sony tables from that time period were powered off the main amplifier's power supply, as were all of the components in the compact or rack system. It was a cheap way to build a cheap system. If the table has been given to you to keep, you might remove the base of the table and look for any identification marks on the motor. If the motor is a expecting a conventional 120/210 voltage, you can snip off the end of the power cord and replace it with an AC plug. If it needs some other voltage, you might invest in an outboard power supply. Though investing anything more than the bare minimum isn't worth it for a Sony table from a compact system. I wouldn't be concerned about loosing the stylus, if it fell out it was better it did it while not playing a record and there was nothing you could do to put it back in place. Good luck with the Dual, it is immeasurably beter than the Sony. . |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 5 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks again, Jan, I suspected I might just get away with a plug change on the Sony. Inside, under the platter, I noticed a small label with 120/240 written on it. My concern is that the cable with a very small 3 pin socket on it (presumably which makes with a matching 3 pin male connector in the back of the SONY amplifier) is too lghtweight to carry a full 240 volt supply. Overheating and all that ... but presumably that depends on the load it is required to support ?? I'm perfectly happy to make the change to the plug and 'light the blue touchpaper' if your think it will work. As to comparing this with the DUAL solution. I fully accept that the Sony deck is not a match for the Dual; but I'm working on the simple principle that whatever signal I deliver to the PC will be processable up to CD standards by the MAGIX Audio Cleaning Lab software I plan to use. And beggars can't be choosers !! Am I on a do-able track ? Regards again ... Barrie Etherington |
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New member Username: FrankfurtherPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-06 | hello guys! my dual 505 left me too yesterday after a lot of years of service. the cartridge seemed loose and i saw the clip were not holding right. is the cartridge only glued on the carrier or you have to change all together? i need a new cartridge carrier for sure my catridge and stylus were still top shape. where can i find some parts? tx |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 6 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello, I'm getting close to finding a source of supply for a Dual 505-1 cartridge and stylus replacement. One of my best contacts has called to say he has 'good news', and I'm due to call him today. I'll post here when I know more. |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 7 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello again, I just had a call from "Johnny" at a business called Guildford Sound and Light in Guildford, Surrey, UK (www.djdeals.co.uk). He says he has tracked down what I want at the original supplier (Ortofon) and he can obtain supply of the Stylus component to suit the original equipment on a Dual 505-1. If that is what you need it will cost about £50 (including UK postage) and he will be pleased to hear from you. |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 81 Registered: Oct-06 | You can also get a stylus at "Garage-A-Records" (I think its URL is www.garagearecords.com). I had a TKS cartridge on my Dual (a TKS55E). They also sell an a 1/2" adapter for the ULM arm, so you can fit more common cartridges on it. Just a thought. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4675 Registered: Dec-04 | And who cannot love a place called 'Garage a records." We would jam in Joe's garage... |
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New member Username: MillgateLyme Regis, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 8 Registered: Nov-06 | Hi guys, I'm outta here now ... thanks, everyone, for your help and advice. Just for the record ... the Sony player blew up when I applied 240V to it. But I have bought a brand new original Dual TKS 49S for about $58 and I'm back in business with my Dual 505-1. Enjoy what you do and have a great Christmas Season. Byeeeeeeeee !!! |
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New member Username: FrankfurtherPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | kool for the adaptor for the 1/2 cartridge.where can i get this? the url does not seem to work tx |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 83 Registered: Oct-06 | Hi Roger, I just clicked on the link in my post, it seemed to work for me. I'll repost the link here: http://www.garagearecords.com/ Hope this helps. As an aside, you can email these guys/gals exactly what you're looking for, and they'll respond fairly quickly. I'm assuming the adapter I have will work on other ULM arms from Dual, but it may vary. In any case, I'm pretty sure they'll have what you're looking for. |
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New member Username: FrankfurtherPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-06 | when i click on the link in the choice theres is also breast enlargement. i think this is not the right thing?! eheh you got a link where i can find the adaptor? tx |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 84 Registered: Oct-06 | Well, Mr. Roger, it was my bad. When I looked at the site, I saw something about replacement needles, and didn't look any closer. Here's the actual link: http://www.garage-a-records.com/index.php Sorry for the screw-up. uar |