Denon avr 2807 or Denon avr 3806???
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New member Username: PierresayadPost Number: 8 Registered: Jun-06 | Hello All, First off, thanks to all for answering my previous questions. I have decided to go with the Denon to power my HT. For a mere $80 I can 'upgrade' from the 2807 to the 3806. Question: Is this wise? Any benefits? The only obvious factor is the remote control.. the 3806 is touchscreen (I think). Does anyone have any experience or input either way? Thank you again -- you guys are awesome and have been a huge help. Pierre |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 514 Registered: Jul-05 | Good Choice! Lets look at this carefully. I would look carefully at the issue of futureproofing in your decision. I have specifically thought about this with regards to Denon receivers. Here is the question? Is 2807 to 3806 a true upgrade for you? The first thing I think of is HDMI versions and HDCP ( high definition copy protection). Why? Because right now we have an industry full of incompatible equipment that doesnt work together with regards to high defintion audio and video. Both. lets look at each separetely; 1. Audio- Hi Def DVDs ( probably a player in the future moreso than now) use new audio codec from both Dolby and DTS, the two main audio format contributors for the movie industry. DOlby 5.1 and DTS 5.1 are being eclipsed in newer equipment and Hi Def DVDs by Dolby True HD and another hi def Dolby format as well as a hi def DTS format ( they have cutesie names that escape me at the moment). You want your receiever to be able to decode all of th4se formats so you can hear them. Thats the bottom line. Your goal is to be sure you can take an HDMI out from the DVD player or sat box or both and run it into your receiver and hear what the audio engineers would like you to hear. So ask that question; which receiver is most likely to be able to do this and be upgraded to do this in the future? At a descriptor level, you want HDMI version 1.3. At a function level you want to be able to hear the new audio formats as well as the old ones. Which receiver is best? 2. Video- again you want hdmiv1.3. BUT-- the earlier versions of HDMI ( all of them) can carry hi def video signals. The versions have more to do with audio and menu functions than video signal per se. Now lets talk about HDCP. The movie studios dont want you and me to be able to copy their hi def movies, so they made HDCP as a way to protect. The catch is that all of our devices have to handshake the same way for us to hear and see the Hi def content. The handshake is the pedestrian yet common term used to describe the software protection saying " OK"-- this vid/aud signal can be accepted/go through/ and process through this device so you can see and hear it. So the DVD player has to send signal and handshake with the receiver, and the same with the display. This will all get worked out overtime but is causing frustration for folks who have bought equipmeent recently ( in droves). Monster cable has seen huge numbers of HDMI cable returns, even though the problem is not related to the actual cable construction. Folks cant get HDMI to work becuase of failed handshakes. Bottom line-- which receiver will best be adaptable to not have these problems in the future? For me, this would be the deciding factor between the two. Even though I looked at the denons closely at CES in January, I cant remember the 2807. I'll look it up and see what I can gleen, but this is how I would decide for me. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 515 Registered: Jul-05 | Took a peak at the CNET review. Its says that the 2807 can take 480i inout and send it out 480P over HDMI; thats pretty cool. Most receievers cant do that. It DOES NOT decode any of the high def audio formats however. My question would be will it be able to in the future with software updates. If you are going to spend bucks on an A/V receiver now-- you want to have that option in the future. |
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New member Username: PierresayadPost Number: 9 Registered: Jun-06 | Marc, Awesome response.. I appreciate your thoroughness. None-the-less, this still doesn't give me a differentiating factor to pick either 2807 over 3806 or vice-versa. Its not like, the 2807 can do HDMI but the 3806 can't. Can you find any actual diff between the 2 units that make or break a decision? Unless the 3806 doesn't have the 480i input to 480p output that you're referring the 2806 has. As far as future software, I'm hoping that regardless of the receiver, (2807 vs 3806 vs 5000, etc..) if new versions of HDMI become available, this should be applicable and downloadable to all units.. we'll see. Thanks, but still searching for the way to go! Pierre Marc, if you get a chance, please look at the diff in their remotes.. does either one excite you? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3298 Registered: Dec-04 | Pierre, if the difference is $80, go newer. Easier to upgrade sortware, etc. And a snazzy remote? Easy choice. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 517 Registered: Jul-05 | Nuck- the less expensive option is technically newer. Pierre- my question would be which one is more upgradable. Lemme see if I can figure this out. The remote on 2807 is supposedly more user friendly by the way. This is typical for Denon. There lower number models are much easier to use than their awesome flagships-- which really require quite a bit of effort to take advantage of all of their functionality. I go with simpler myself. A few moments... |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 518 Registered: Jul-05 | OK- I looked closely at these two as best as I could. There are some interesting differences actually. My take is that the 2807 is easier to use both due to its remote control as well as more front connection options. The 3806 gives more power and the power amp area is better designed too. In addition it has a higher DAC sampling rate, as well as Burr Brown DAC decoders that are well respected, as opposed to the decent Analog DAC decoder in the 2807. The conversion rates at this level are identical however. There some digital surround modes that the 3806 has that the 2807 doesnt. In addition, the 3806 is set up for SACDs ( super audio CDs-- a dying breed frankly) as well as HDCD-- sort of like high definition CDs recording at higher sampling rates which explains the better DAC set up overall in the 3806). IN reality, the 2807 looks a lot easier to use, newer, and cheaper. The 3806 is more robust in power and functionality, but will have a higher learning curve. They both will likely be fine for you in a single room home theater and I doubt you will be able to tell the difference. Unless you use highly inefficient speakers, like Thiels, in which case more power and a better power section will mean something. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 519 Registered: Jul-05 | OK. Did a little more research. Heres the bottom line; he 3806 is stronger for audio/the 2807 is stronger for video. Becuase neither can decode the Hi Def audio formats-- I'd always go straight vid signal from source ( dvd player/sat box whatever) to display and audio either via HDMI or Digital optical or coaxial digital-- to the Denon receiver. If I had to pick one right now-- unless I found out that the 2807 was more upgradable than the 3806, I might go with the 3806. The only thing to consider on the video side is that if you have multiple Standard def source;; ie cable TV/VCR/DVD player etc-- then the 2807 is pretty sweet. You can run em all into the Denon 2807 and get 480P goin out HDMI in one cable to the display. If the HT is a single source deal ( like a DVD player only) then the 3806 looks stronger due to audio emphasis. If you use a media PC, the 3806 is more capable as well. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 520 Registered: Jul-05 | BTW- Yes the 3806 does not due 480i to 480P conversion--and the 2807 does; however-- I use my DVD players to do deinterlacing and bypass the receiver entirely. I do wonder what deinterlacing chip the Denon 2807 uses. That would be important. If they arent sourcing from Faroudja or Silicon Optix, I'd be concerned. My guess is its a Faroudja but you never know--denon has used both in their well regarded DVD players. |
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New member Username: PierresayadPost Number: 10 Registered: Jun-06 | Marc, Thanks for the review. All in all, I think I'm siding with the 2807.. its newer and does the 480i/p conversion (however, I don't really know when I'll actually need that). I am running 5.1 system with ORB speakers. Yes, they're efficient, small, and I know most any receiver in this caliber will supply enough clean wattage. As far as my uses though... hardly any movies. I'm a huge audiophile (musician w/perfect pitch) and your emphasis that the 3806 is stronger here is interesting. In term of video components, I have the 50' Pioneer Elite Plasma... it has 2 HDMI inputs, so I can pretty much bypass the receiver here. Its probably better to use my DVD or TV to decode vs the receiver right? (sony dvd player w/video up conversion). The diff in the DACs and additional watts.. will I notice this? Probably not. My only remaining issue with either unit is that the Denon website doesn't have a 'check' mark next to 5 channel stereo capabilities. Does this mean that I can't listen to a regular audio CD with all 5.1 speakers going? I don't want to 'process' the sound through some lame 'music' mode..... I just want a dry stereo signal going to front, back, and center speakers. Any thoughts? Thanks again Marc, Pierre |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3304 Registered: Dec-04 | Pierre, you wont get that. If you wire for 2 sets of speakers only, you can go A+B, no center, but with .1 |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 521 Registered: Jul-05 | Well Pierre, Denon has a mode called 5 channel stereo in many of their offerings, but I dont recommend it as a way to listen to music. Most CDs or record albums are recorded in 2 channels, left and right, and are best heard that way. The 3806 has a number of 5 channel modes though for analog audio. The 3806 is set up for SACDs and HDCDs, has digital Burr Brown DACs and has a higher bit rate conversion ability as well. In addition, it has a phono pre-amp built in, so you could listen to records if thats an issue. The power section is classically divided into four areas separated by little walls, a time honored tradition in power sections of excellence; this is why the 3806 is heavier. If SACDs, HD-CDs, and records arent on your use list, then the 3806 loses its audio advantages over the 2807 for the most part. AS far as dry stereo signals, once you take a 2 channel signal and through it around, the sound is processed noi matter how you slice it. The best audiophile stuff has very few features and almost no distortion, and can be found in a discussion on amps or integrated AMPs and has very little to do with A/V receivers. Your plasma is excellent by the way and yes you can video bypass the receiver and just use it for audio. You will be able to listen to 5 channel modes with either unit if thats what you want. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1508 Registered: Sep-04 | The 3806 is sonically quite superior to the 2807. It has better grip, pace, transparency resolution and is just an allround better machine. The Orbes are going to be easy to drive, but that doesn't mean that you won't appreciate the extra fidelity of the 3806. The Hi-Def Audio formats (HD-DVD and BluRay) aren't supported by ANY receivers that I know of yet, so if you want to buy now, this isn't an issue. The other hi-def formats (SACD and DVD-A) are virtually dead and will remain niche market propositions in my view, so also not really a reason to choose particular receivers. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 523 Registered: Jul-05 | Franks confirming what I have said. Just an update on the new audio formats. The final ( well for now) HDMI version 1.3 was released this past week. AS I suspected and have posted on THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL HDMI PLUG HAS CHANGED. This means that current HDMI receivers, if upgradable, will need an adaptor when using an HDMI v 1.3 new connection. Also, the release of Sony Blu-Ray Players as well as their PS3 were delayed largely to incorporate the v1.3 adoption for HDMI. This means that the first receivers to have the native v1.3 plug types/decoding capabilities will likely be released in last quarter 2006 ( like November -December). This may or may not be an important consideration for anyone interested in spending on new a/v receiver equipment. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4319 Registered: Mar-05 | you know, I still don't get it: what earthshaking, mindblowing, eye-poppingly monumental improvements does HDMI (version 0.1 to version 1.3 to version 3.1 gazillion) purport to bestow upon us that has so many consumers' pannties in so many different convoluted wads? |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 524 Registered: Jul-05 | Eddie- I have not said that HDMI 1.3 offers anything---except a definite potential for significant video and audio incompatibilities. It is very important for anyone about to dump bucks into equipment to be wary of early obsolescence, if, for example, DTS-HD or Blu Ray DVDs have any meaningful considerations for a buyer in the future ( they may not). Now let me answer your specific question--- first off-- understand that I dont believe you are a strong video home theater guy-- your focus is on audio equipment--- so youir response makes total sense. From a video standpoint--its about conducting a true 1080P signal-- as opposed to relaying a conversion of--lets say 1080i signal left to be upconverted at a devices discretion. Thats actually a big difference, although big is a subjective and a discussable and cussable term for sure. Second-- all of the HD-DVDs and Blu Ray DDVDs are going to have Dolby true HD, DTS- HD and the other dolby acronym I cant remember-- anything less than v1.3 wont decode them, although initially I was told differently. Third-- the physical plug has changed-- I knew this would happen. That means that the HDMI connections currently in use wont fit the ones that will be the standard soon, reendering inconveniences on any and all HDMI connections-- hopefully solved by adaptors. Lastly-- the hdmi v1.3 can carry all of the menu and feature functions that Blu Ray blows smoke about ( and demonstrated at CES)-- there are many many of them. All othere versions ant carry that information. So all of the interactive stuff and these other things that , frankly, have little value to me, but may rock someone elses world--arent accessible by any other HDMI type except v1.3--currently on no devices-- but going to be on all newly designed devices by Christmas and afterwards. To the nitty gritty-- audio quality-- I was at the new audio formats demos at CES-- both Dolby and DTS-- and I have the disks as well. I cant tell ANY DIFFERNCE AT ALL between the new audio formats and the old ones. NONE based on what I have heard so far. Why? Cuz I dont think the data bit limitatins in the old format like dolby 5.1 were being reached as it was. Availability does not define use. Video-- a true 1080P signal can cross as a native signal. This is a potentially significant upgrade. I hope this response is helpful My band is gigging this weekend. Dugout hwy 6 and Westheimer. Hope you can come on out. Friday starting at 10. Its fun! |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 525 Registered: Jul-05 | I meant to say in the above post that current dolby 5.1 data limitations are NOT being reached so having a higher ceiling so to speak or a wider road doesnt mean a small car travels any better on it. Hope that makes sense. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4320 Registered: Mar-05 | yes Marc, I'm not a videophile at all...wouldn't have guessed that from my stunning 20" Panasonic curved CRT, wouldja now? : ) Well, I'm going to have to wait and see what HD-DVD/BluRay actually looks like, but I doubt I'd be terribly impressed since I have seen EDTVs and HDTVs side by side and couldn't see a whit of difference, heck even a good Sony SDTV from about 10 feet away playing a DVD with a composite video connection looks plenty nice to me. It just seems like every other noob on these forums posting for advice has somehow been brainwashed into thinking that having HDMI is some life or death necessity. Ah, the joys of capitalism. I've made a note of your Friday gig but it is a bit far out for my lazy beer-drinking @ss. When will you play at Rice Village again? |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 526 Registered: Jul-05 | 1080P and 480P, with good equipment, is a big difference. The reason why you havent been impressed yet, is becuase, up til now, there has been almost no available true 1920 x 1080 material Thats true HD resolution. You dont get it from Cable/SAtellite/DISH or ESPN-HD; all that stuff is HD-Lite so to speak, and the displays are mostly mismatched and require scaling--not an optimal seen no matter what anybody tells you. The only true 1920x 1080 material out there until HD-DVD/Blu Ray has been on hard drive loops ( The Living Sea for example)-- and some WMD- 4 files. Eds and HDs are different in their current form-- but not with a 480i source like a standard DVD. If your perspective is that a composite vid signal in any way compaes to a solid component set up--hmm- well what to say. Thats a big PQ difference there due to some real limitations over a composite connection. To get to the Dugout, you just go I-10 west to Highway 6--about 25 minutes studemont to hwy 6 exit. Take a left to Westheimer ( about 10 Minutes) and you are there. Parking is a lot easier than the Village. AS far as Brian O Neills- It probably wont be until September at the earliest. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1514 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh, and in case you're a Toshiba HD-DVD owner rubbing his hands with glee, don't. It doesn't support HD-DVD's 1080p mode, as well as the lossless audio tracks which are meant to be part of the spec. Great huh? Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4327 Registered: Mar-05 | heh, well even I am half-emerging from the video stone ages...just got a Toshiba 30" widescreen HDTV RPT for under $500 on Wednesday, BB had a one-day sale too good to pass up. Just couldn't bring myself to blow $1500-2000 on a 42" plasma... Picked up some $12 Phillips component cables today from my local warehouse club and am waiting for my Avia DVD to come in... No HD-DVD/Blu-Ray anywhere even near my radar though, heh. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 529 Registered: Jul-05 | Congrats Eddie-- No Hd/BR on my radar as well-- its a different discussion-- but I am satisfaied with my current set up and would like to see the technologies become more compatible before I do anything else. You can get a decent panasonic plasma for 1295 at this point by the way ( no taxes online). |
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New member Username: 1tedy1Houston Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-06 | I have the Denon 3806 connected to my Sony Wega via HDMI and the picture from my LG DVR blinks on & off intermittently while playing back DVD's. Any one else having this problem or (preferably) a solution? |
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New member Username: LrossnmSanta Fe, New Mexico Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-06 | Marc: You have really been a big help with trying to figure out this whole HDMI thing. I have a couple of other questions. I have an older Onkyo 565 and am thinking about the 2807 which will be used for HT not much CD. I have a Panasonic Plasma th42px50u that has 1 HDMI connection which I figure is v1. Is the whole issue of waiting for v1.3 a moot point for me or does the HDTV connection not come into the picture?.. Tried to get a v1 to v3 upgrade answer fron Denon tech support but their tech support is non existent! Larry |
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Bronze Member Username: Mikemv1977Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada Post Number: 42 Registered: Feb-06 | This is by far one of the best forum chats I think I have ever read concerning any Denon system before. Most people just show up on here trying to tell people what to buy and its not really fair to most who dont know a lot about home theater. Marc - I am very impressed with what you have seen and sharing your info is a big help. I was looking at HD DVD and Blu Ray players at my local London Drugs store and for anyone who says that they both look great rite now is definitely not doin there homework on the 2 products. The sales guy was giving me a lecture on the whole idea of how its 200lines more resolution passing thru the HDMI, but I am already well aware there was no tv that supports the signal he was talking about. The info you have provided has opened a lot of doors for me, since I decided a long time ago to stick it out with my current Panasonic 27inch CRT. The rush to get a high def tv doesnt seem to work nowadays. Anyone who bought a tv 5 yrs ago thought the next big innovation was the DVI plug, only to discover that HDMI was the next big thing. So then anyone who bought the adapters for it are now going to have to buy another HDMI conversion plug. Doesnt make alot of sense to run out and buy new stuff. Bcuz 6 months later, you have to upgrade anyhow. My plan is to just buy a projector and save myself the hassle. But I gotta wait till i have money first. As for your info on Denon receivers, I really enjoyed what you had to say. I currently own a Denon 3803, and to this day, minus the HDMI upconversion, I get full upconversion of all incoming video signals thru the component video out. I didnt know what I had gotten myself into back at the time I bought it, but i have no complaints about it. Theres nothing more exciting then to watch movies in 7.1 audio. Anyone who says 5.1 works for them is doin ok, but once u get into the extra channels in use, its way better then 5.1 I have a hard time sitting and watching movies in just 5.1 now. The other day I was at a friends place using his projector to watch the first 3 Star Wars movies, and it wasnt till after Episode 2 did we find out that the rear right channel was not working. There was a short somewhere and we couldnt find it. I enjoyed watching the movies on the big screen wall, but I missed my audio. George Lucas knew what he was doin putting those movies out in 5.1EX and I am a strong believer that that is how movies should be heard as well as dtsES 6.1 Anyhow, thanx for all the great info and keep it up. We need more audiophiles in this world who arent spending all there time talking out of there @$$. Remember people, do your homework before you buy, you will save yourself a lot of pain later on. Catch y'all later. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1538 Registered: Sep-04 | Larry, your panasonic connection is v1, so HDMI 1.3 is not for you and it is indeed a moot point. That is, unless you intend to go to a new display device when they become available with v1.3... All this built-in obsolences really pisses me off. It doesn't allow people the time to build fully balanced systems end to end. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: LrossnmSanta Fe, New Mexico Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-06 | FRANK: Thanks for the confirmation. It does leave one out in the cold. Perhaps there will be a connection converter. I would like to be able to use DolbyTrueHD. I'm more interested in the HT audio than in an upgrade for my video. I'm happy with the Pani 1080i. Larry |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1542 Registered: Sep-04 | The thing is, this is not just about connectivity. It's easy enough to make an adaptor to go from v1 to 1.3 - it's just a bunch of signals and the new surround formats don't require extra wires. It's also a matter of all receivers not decoding the new audio formats like TrueHD. I have a brand new Arcam AV9 processor. It won't do these newfangled modes. It has 5 (count 'em) HDMI connections. I think it's the only processor to have this, but 1.3 renders them obsolete, provided the new formats take off. Me? I hope they stay in the games market - I don't want my processor to become obsolete so quickly... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 544 Registered: Jul-05 | Larry- Hope you are still out there. I have differing information than Frank that may be of some value to you. WE are talking about audio and video signals and how to get the best in the future as far as an HD picture signal and Hi definition audio. Ideally, you would have one HDMI v1.3 connection/software on all devices and the world is at peace. Of course we all have differing generations of technology and so thats a toughie for now. 1. Panny Plasma- The commercial display connection blades are removable and replaceable. So when Panasonic makes a HDMI v1.3 blade, it could be popped in. However, for the display it doesnt matter at all becuase and HDMI v1.1 WILL PASS a 1080P signal and you dont care about the audio signal anyway. So you are good in this regard. My only comment is that your display is not 1920 x 1080 ( true HD resolution) so your plasma will downscale to 1366 x 768 or whatever that plasmas native resolution is. But v1.1 or v1.3 doesnt matter from a video signal standpoint. What you would be missing are certain interactive features from BLu Ray for instance that you couldnt see. Stuff you dont even know about and may not care about at all. 2. Audio- It is possible to take a 7 channel audio analog signal directly from a said equipped HD-DVD player/Blu Ray player and run seven audio analog channels into a receiever and hear Dolby TRue HD and the rest of the formats as well. This presumes that the said Hi DEf dvd player can decode Hi Res audio internal and spit it out analog at the DVD player level. So you would have HDMI out to Plasma direct and then analogs to your receiver. I believe that Denon has the requesite analog inputs for audio BUT CHECK TO BE SURE. 3. So you basically may still be good. Lets face it-- those of us takin the early train on Hi DEf audio and video will be doin some workarounds for awhile. 4. Lastly, on the physical plug changes-- I have read information where only some types of devices will get a different plug and others will stay the same. Stay tuned.... |
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New member Username: LrossnmSanta Fe, New Mexico Post Number: 3 Registered: Jul-06 | Thanks Marc. Still somewhat confused. I wanted to get the Panny 50" Plasma but didn't have the room . I really like the 42" model( has 1080i) and the HD looks fine over my Dish VIP 622. I've read (here) that the 622 and the 2807 do not give a "handshake". Also read that Dish may fix that next year. I give it a little wait until I jump on the new Denon. Do like the upconversion and the 7.1. Want some heavy duty audio. Larry |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1569 Registered: Sep-04 | Marc, One of my points is that almost any plasma bought now will not do 1080P without downscaling to something like 748. Therefore there is little point in having a 1080P machine and if you did you'd probably be better off telling that machine to output 720P rather than 1080P and not rely on the display's downscaling since that's relatively new technology. Furthermore, although it's possible to connect 7 analogue channels to your receiver, you now have to setup both your receiver and your HD DVD player for the levels, unless you want to do it all via the player, in which case why buy a surround receiver? Yet more propensity for inaccuracy, it's a mess. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 545 Registered: Jul-05 | Larry- Why dont you call DISH and ask them about this? They likely have a fix...or are using a newer or different box for their HD customers. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 546 Registered: Jul-05 | Frank- downscaling has been around for many years and is much easier to do than upscaling. There are, now, 1080P plasmas for those who watch hi def DVDs. However, the dissh/Cable HD signal is not 1920 x 1080; its 1024 x 1080, making the Hitachi plasma ( 42 inch HD) the best match for cable/DISH HD. SPL level matching is always done at the receiver level although some players do have that bass boost or dialog enhancer mode, which I leave off while calibrating. |
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New member Username: LrossnmSanta Fe, New Mexico Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-06 | Marc: I have read where others have contacted Dish and there is no fix as yet (for the Dish 622 HD Receiver/PVR ) for connecting with the 2807 via HDMI. I may get it anyway. As I stated I want to upgrade my OnkyoTX-DS595. I really love the "big sound" of DVD's and HD programing. Larry |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 547 Registered: Jul-05 | Good Luck!!! |
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New member Username: Profhd1Manassas, VA USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-06 | can the profhd1 be upgraded to hdm1 v1.3? it accepts 1080p signals thru hdmi v1.1 and i have the samsung bluray for that right now. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 210 Registered: Apr-04 | I scanned some of the other posts, and I did not see any mention of the fact that the 3806 has higher quality Burr Brown DAC's. That was a major selling point for me between the 3805 and the 2805. I did an A/B test in my living room over several days and I could hear the difference. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 554 Registered: Jul-05 | Better scan again.... |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 213 Registered: Apr-04 | OK,OK... Marc metioned them.....whatever,,, sheesh!  |
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New member Username: Cobra11Post Number: 3 Registered: Oct-06 | On my Denon 2807 there are two/three playing modes that are pretty much devoted to playing stereo music sources without any so called "surround" mode features or circuits affecting the playout. The mode calle "PURE DIRECT" reproduces the input sound withou the signal (analog or digital source) passing thru any tone or surround circuits. They are essentially turned Off in this playout mode. This mode is very clear and clean sounding on my speaker system. The "DIRECT" mode is also a pure playback mode and offers no tonal control or low frequency functions of the speakers. The "STEREO" mode is like direct however it does allow you to adjust the tone controls and thus must use the tone circuits. The subwoofer output can be controlled in this mode via the Surround Parameter button behind the hatch on the front of the system. I mostly use my 2807 for TV and DVD playing but when I play music CDs I use the STEREO mode. I keep learning a few new (to me) things each week that I use this amp and am constantly referring to the user manual for something I have missed. These are rather complex devices to get your mind around. |
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Silver Member Username: JethroLansing, Mi Post Number: 116 Registered: Jan-06 | 3806! |
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New member Username: Alnov2002Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-06 | Hey guys! Thank you all for wonderful exchange of experience here. I have a practical question: As I read both 3806 and 2807 have AL24 processing. I'm wondering in what sound modes this effect gets activated if I use external CD source? Is it PURE DIRECT, DIRECT, STEREO? Does it get activated in surround modes for DVD movies as well? thankx in advance |
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New member Username: Cobra11Post Number: 6 Registered: Oct-06 | Take a look at this link.... Here Denon explains the 3 AL24 processing modes. Note that AL24 processing appears to be done on DIGITAL signals. http://www.denon.com.hk/tech_support/tech.php?code=PIFEUM7H |
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New member Username: Alnov2002Post Number: 2 Registered: Oct-06 | Thank you for the link. However it only explains the principles of AL24. My question was about in what modes it gets activated in 3806 and 2807 and does it work for DVD sound or not. I'm currently choosing between those two models and any informations about practical experience with AL24 in these models is highly appreciated. |
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New member Username: Cobra11Post Number: 8 Registered: Oct-06 | Based upon my understanding, use of the 2807 and the 2807 owner's manual, the Pure Direct and the Direct modes are not process any audio surround or tone circuits. Additionally, if the input to the AVR is analog, it is my understanding that the AL24 is not used, as it is a digital processor. See my reply (about 5 up from this). Also for a deeper understanding, you can call the Denon Tech Support help line. I have the folks at the Denon support to be helpful IF you ask your question the correct way. Their phone number is listed on their website in the Contact Us area. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1088 Registered: Oct-04 | In order to get a Dolby Digital or DTS playback through a direct mode the DVD player you are using must have on board processing for this. Apparantly the new True HD Dolby Digital and DTS audio tracks will be available through this feature - the HD-DVD or Blu-ray player will decode the track and convert to analog, the receiver must have a 6 or 8 channel direct input in order to play this. To go off topic a bit here... I currently have a Denon 2910 hooked up with the 6 channel direct analogs, as well as digitally. Switching back and forth in a movie soundtrack reveals certain differences. Generally dialogue based tracks and music playback sound best through the analog connection, but during action flicks ambient and surround sounds are more dynamic and pronounced. Is this the difference between the DACs? The timbre of the devices? Analog vs. digital? Is the 2910's 6 channel output meant for music and not movies? I've asked a few times but no one seems to see where I'm coming from... Now with the roll out of these HD surround tracks... the bottem line is will analog sound as good as digital? Does one need a new receiver to take advantage of the new surround formats with on board processing through the digital connection, or will you get on par performance through a 6 or 8 channel analog connection? Or will there be little difference as the current formats sound pretty darn good? |
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Bronze Member Username: Cobra11Post Number: 12 Registered: Oct-06 | Hi Kano: On my Denon, music assets, played from CD source, just about always sounds better in the Stero mode. My CD player is only connected via optical cabel. I have a 6.1 speaker system and the Denon mode I like best (to play music CDs) is displayed as "6CH ST CD" with the "digital" light illumintaded on the display and the AUTO detect mode ON. All 6 speakers and the subwoofer are used in this mode and the richness of the sound is super. The two center speakers (front and back left) somehow are mixed into the playout in this mode. I do not have analog input attached from the CD or DVD players to the Denon. Exactly how do you have 6 channels directly attached as analog DVD player as inputs? Are there 6 copper RCA jacks coming from your DVD/CD player as well as an optical? Excuse if this question sounds less that intelligent, I am just not aware of this physical setup and how it could be accomplished. Lastly, does your DVD/CD player do some sort of decoding to take the two CD tracks and decode that into 6 separate analog outputs(from theCD/input(to the Denon) channels? Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4300 Registered: Dec-04 | Arty, the 6th, 7th and 8th channels are mixed mono layers. The 6th(rear center) is a copy of the front center. The other channels are mono copies of the rears. Good to hear you like the surround experience. I have gone away from it(stereo) but the future is bright for dvda and sacd. Kano, of course the digital out to your receiver uses the receiver's DAC's for transfer. Analogue is using the players chips(and clock). Unless you have a super-duper player, the digital should be better(given the super-duper receiver). As far as 2ch music, I think take-what-you-get is the rule of the day. Denon does stereo at a moderate level. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1089 Registered: Oct-04 | http://ca.denon.com/dvd2910_large_back_rdax_1200x282.jpg |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4307 Registered: Dec-04 | ? |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1091 Registered: Oct-04 | "Exactly how do you have 6 channels directly attached as analog DVD player as inputs? Are there 6 copper RCA jacks coming from your DVD/CD player as well as an optical? Excuse if this question sounds less that intelligent, I am just not aware of this physical setup and how it could be accomplished. " |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 43 Registered: Nov-04 | Well Kano you sure can take a thread off topic! But that is what happens when you have your name the same as a video game character. I would say that there are a variety of things that are affecting the way that you are hearing the differences in the processing between the direct analog out and the digital to the receiver. One could be the DAC's bit rate and the resulting compression of the sound to make things sound louder and more in your face then they really are. A cheap trip used by many to involve the listener. Just my two bits I have more ideas but I do not think that you can afford them. |
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Bronze Member Username: Cobra11Post Number: 13 Registered: Oct-06 | Hi Kano: I see now that your DVD has 6 RCA analog jacks for audio. Mine does not. Just HDMI, and optical audio outputs so mine is essentially a digital audio output only system. That Denon DVD player seems to have at least one of everything! |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1092 Registered: Oct-04 | "the DAC's bit rate and the resulting compression of the sound to make things sound louder and more in your face then they really are." I think you may be onto something here - I did more A/B between the analog and digital last night. To get the general level of SPL I have had to increase the volume on the analog connection 3 dB on the volume scale, but the dialogue and ambient sounds were more recessed while the dynamic sounds like explosions and gunfire were generally the same loudness. When I increased the volume on the analog connection by another 3-5 dB now the dialogue and background sounds were the same volume as the digital connection but the "in your face" sounds were really jumping out at me. Your theory that the HK does a slight compression has some weight as the soundtrack breaks up at a lower SPL than through the Denon's DACs and 6 ch out. Also through digital using the HK's DACs all sounds were presented more evenly, whether it were a gunshot or a car door slamming. Through the analog connection there is a much better dynamic range with more depth given to both the loudness of sounds as well as their distance on screen. As well the bass definition is clearer through the analog, this being due to a higher volume setting and more juice going to the towers or to the processing I am not sure. Clearly the Denon with the Burr Brown DACs which are more isolated from vibration in my system sounds better. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4318 Registered: Dec-04 | Kano, what makes you figgur that a vibration issue has lessened the solid state performance of the player? The transport itself could be subject to vibration, yes, but usually at primary or secondary freq's. 3rd order order harmonics are more easily filtered out, via standard clocking(completely seperate from the pickup). |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1093 Registered: Oct-04 | I've heard that small vibrations can affect the DACs - I have my 2910 resting on squash balls cut in half. If this offers any benefit or as an explanation to better sound I am not sure. Given the size of the DVD player, however, it would be a good assumption that the sound processing would be more isolated from interference and vibrations than in a receiver. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 44 Registered: Nov-04 | Well I still think Kano might be lost in space but I do believe he is started on the right track. The DAC's in the Denon are proprietary models used by Denon that are not the standard units and are designed for the supply voltage that the 2910 produces and are very well designed for a mid range player. The DAC's the HK uses are the generic ones found in most DVD players under $100. Not exactly what I would call quality. The problem is you need good speakers to hear the difference. It could be better than Memorex! You need to remember the receiver is doing a lot of work with its power supply. It has to feed the pre and power amp, the chipset used to processes the speaker management, surround fields etc. I think people forget that even though you are not actually using the DSP extras, the tuner, the video processing etc. the receiver is still powering all of these and therefore not able to handle the power consumption as well a single unit. The Denon only has to move the DVD drive and power the chipset which requires alot less power, and the Denon has a great power supply. That is all for now perhaps we should all open up our DVD players and see what kind of power supplies they have. 2 bits. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4321 Registered: Dec-04 | Mortal, here is change for your quarter.In copper. The Denon units are adequate and nothing more. Fancy pants video switching, thin(high efficiency?) analog bits with j-fet's over powered, overheated and outclassed. The only logical next step is to componants, for severaral reasons. Seperate power supplies. Here is the rub. The Denon could be made to be a competant unit with outboard power supplies. Seperating the 5v, 12v(+and-)and the display voltage(40v?) would clean up the unit quite a bit, leaving room for caps like the Rotel already has. Or a torroid the size of a competant Nad, say 272. Secondly, and needless to say, if you are looking for musical power, you leave video out of it completely. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4322 Registered: Dec-04 | And if you weren't such a bung-hole digging at other posters, you might actually pay attention to an old guy who has made more mistakes (so far) than you have dreamed up yet. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1686 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, I have to say i disagree with your assessment of the Denon, particularly in the context of comparing it to the Rotels. I've used the Rotels as well as the Denons and my experience is that the Rotels are nowhere near competitive. They don't have the image grip, contrast or detail and motion is a nightmare - on all of the ones I tried anyway. By comparison, the Denon 2910 is a star. It's picture quality is very good indeed and even its sound isn't bad. I'm quite surprised by your results. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 226 Registered: Apr-04 | The Denon 3805/06 has 4 power supplies with higher grade caps and coils than the 2805/07. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 227 Registered: Apr-04 | "Denon does stereo at a moderate level." -Nuck "the most impressive sounding stereo or analogue multi-channel amplifier yet at this price point." -- Audiofile "excellent stereo playback" -Secrets of Home Theater "in stereo mode, this receiver was very musical...stunning clarity and fullness from a receiver" -- Sound and Vision ": it's a flavour of the quality you get from serious integrateds and high-end pre-powers, which is high praise. Remarkably, the AVR-3805 even sounds good in stereo. A Pure Direct mode shuts down the video and digital stages for better analogue sound. ----What Hi-Fi "... Sound reproduction for music is remarkable," -Audio Enz "its amp section and overall sound tipped the scales and landed Denon the Award (Reciever of the Year" -- Audioholics.com "Denon's AVR-3805 receiver is a knockout. Its sound quality almost compares with high-end separate preamp/processor and amplifier combinations -- CNET (Editor's Choice Award) the Denon AVR-3805 is "perfectly balanced between the conflicting demands of versatility and usability, between sheer audio performance and price...with impressive power reserves of more than 93 watts per channel even when seven channels are going at once. - ----Sound and Vision Reviewers Choice Award 2004 |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 495 Registered: Feb-05 | I'll agree with all that the Denon upper end units starting with the 2807 are quite decent,but in the lower end the HK offers a better amplifier and an all around better value. Whoever said that HK receivers use"the same DAC's found in $100 DVD players" needs to open the valve on their self and let the crap out. FYI HK currently uses Cirrus Logic DACs in their entry models-AVR140-340, a proven performer in the industry and in their upper end AVR's they use proprietary custom buit DACs from Texas Instruments, a semiconductor industry leader beyond reproach. A typical "budget" DVD or CD player will use DACs of much lower quality usually made by the manufacturer themselves or a contracted Chinese manufacturer. Most recievers built today of decent quality will have a primary power supply consisting of a large transformer and large filter supply caps and a secondary smaller transformer with usually same size caps. This is standard design fare and HK as well as Denon had been doing this for many years. A smaller secondary supply provides extra levels of current for the rear"surround" channels when power hungry front and center channel speakers demand the most from the primary supply during high volumes with surround or other bass laden material. I don't give a damn about video switching as this is best done directly through your display but in terms of amplifier quality the Denons, at least the upper end models have a very good build. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 45 Registered: Nov-04 | Well at least I stirred of the cauldron. Some times you have to move the sludge at the bottom of the pit. I must admit copy and paste is a great feature. Man those product websites are informative! Here is one for you "Cirrus Logic, Inc. (Nasdaq: CRUS), announced that its CS98100 DVD processor and CS4340 digital-to-analog converter (DAC) chips are powering CyberHome's new line of portable DVD players" I guess $100 was a little too high! Do not believe all that you read, in the newspapers or on the websites. Cirrus Logic makes many different qualities of DAC's. Four power supply in one chassis! I have seen one if those units and they are large but those power supplies are small! Take an average 2-channel amp, 50 to 75 watts and see how large the supplies are and then go look at denon's and wonder in amazement at the marvels of marketing hype! The denon does many wonderful things, it is very well designed and can over power most modern living rooms, if matched with the right speakers. I will agree with Nuck I would leave video out. That is if I had $10 grand in my pocket, but I do not and if I did I would buy a 2-channel system and leave it at that with my crappy HT set up. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mortal_oneCanada Post Number: 46 Registered: Nov-04 | I guess I missed the general point to my thesis. Sometimes it does not take much to get a quality system, pick a few quality components and match them well and you can achieve musical bliss on a shoe string. You can not "future proof" your system. You can make choices that allow you to upgrade your system, but if you can look into the future and see the direction things will be going I would suggest dropping the A/V club and joining the stock market! There is always a trade off when price is a limitation. Integrated products will always have limitations, and you need to find a balance. We are talking about low end equipment at these price points, what you are really considering is brand loyalty. We are not high enough up the scale to be concerned about minutia details but far above the joe blow average system. Sharing of information is great! And discussions are greatly beneficial. 2 bits, no change. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 496 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't stir the pot to much Mortal 1 or flames may arise hehehe! Your right Cirrus Logic does make some economy DACs but it's certanly no secret that nearly all others do as well. The type of DAC used in a <$200 DVD player will not be on par with that of a receiver. That is the CS4340 used in the CyberHome player but HK's entry to midlevel receivers use the CS49400 for DSP which is a considerably upscale from the 4340. The TI 610 is used for the upper end 745,645(released yet?) and the 445. These are a far cry from the garbage DAC in a cheap DVD player. Denon pretty much exclusively uses Burr Brown so has HK,which my 8550 has an 18 bit BB. So it is plenty fair to say that HK as well as Denon knows and uses good quality semiconductor components. Your right there is a great amount of brand loyalty in this catagory and price range, but even when money is no object,perfection is in the ears of the listener and never realized to some out there at any cost. That is why people with $25K speakers will think nothing about changing that one particular cable set out for a drop in the bucket price of only $1500 vs. the previously spent only $800. Of course one cannot future proof their system nor can they their PC either and probably their TV as well the way things are heading.IMO and listening experience I will say that mid to top models from Denon are outstanding at HTand packed with features but HK ,also an exemplary performer at HT,seems to have a slight edge with music at least for me. You have to be sensible, it just doesn't make sense to spend more than a few grand tops on a receiver when your in decent new seperates territory and excellent used seperates range for that amount of money. |
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New member Username: Anonymouse99Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-06 | After pulling hair for a few weeks and bringing home a Denon 2307CI, auditioning a 2807 and 3806, I decided to buy a refurb 3806. If audio quality is paramount, 3806 may be the way to go(I got one from secondact.biz - a reputable, highly rated outfit). Surprisingly, none of these units come close to my (15-year old) Denon AVC-3030's audio detail! |
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