Are SACD Connections Worth The Extra Installation Cost?
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 41 Registered: Mar-06 | Hello To All Again, It's Cheesteak Frank here from Philly. I need some advice. I am in the process of relocating my HT equipment to a different room to free up some space in my Family Room. I am in the process of getting some estimates to do the relocation and one of the issues that an installer brought to my attention was that my current setup/install was not wired to utilize the SACD capability of my Sony DVD Player. He basically said that he would have to run 5 more wires (1 for each speaker) into the multi-channel of my Rotel Surround Sound Receiver and asked if I wanted him to factor this into the estimate. I told him that I was not very knowledgeable on SACDs (even though I own a few and thought they sounded ok but not great - now I know why) and wanted to ask my friends here in this forum if they thought it was worth it to add the extra wiring. So guys bottom line - is the sound quality and production from an SACD really better than regular CDs and is it worth the added cost for me. I value your opinions. Thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 66 Registered: Aug-06 | are your DVD player and reciever going to be in different locations? if so i would say go ahead and run them; it can't be that much more if you are already having them run other cables for you. not only is it useful for SACD but if in the future you upgrade to a next generation DVD player, you can utilize the new formats like Dolby TrueHD. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 42 Registered: Mar-06 | Yes, the DVD Player and the receiver will be in two separate locations. I am locating the "power" equipment (ie: Amp, receiver, comcast box; Power conditioner) into the basement and the equipment that I need to use regularly (ie: CD Changer and DVD) will be moved to the back of my Family Room for easy access. Everything will be IR repeating controlled. So, that run is about 30 feet per wire. Where I am confused at your answer was that cables will not only be useful for SACD but also for the future for a next generation DVD Player. I thought Blue Ray or HDDVD would work through an HDMI connection only and that all the RCA cables I am running for SACD would no longer be needed. |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 68 Registered: Aug-06 | well if your reciever has HDMI than maybe you don't need it. if it was me i would just run it anyway i wouldn't think the cost would be so high that it should be a major decision. |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 278 Registered: Jun-05 | The new audio formats gor HD-dvd and Blueray will only transfer through HDMI 1.3 which does not exist yet. So anyone that wants to use an existing receiver/prepro will have to use 6 RCA cables (not 5) to hear the new Dolby and DTS sound formats. When HDMI 1.3 is available you will need a new receiver/prepro in order to use HDMI. There will be no software upgrades fpr existing receivers it is new hardware. |
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Bronze Member Username: Cobra11Post Number: 32 Registered: Oct-06 | Hi Casey: A single Toslink or Optical out cable that connects your DVD / HD-DVD / BlueRay to your existing AV Receiver or Pre Processor will carry all the Dolby and DTS sound formats. The benefit of the optical cable is that it is impervious to pretty much all types of interference and can be of great length. On my setup, with my Denon AVR-2807, I have all audio coming to the Denon via Optical cables. The optical feeds are from my Cablevision HD DVR and also from my Samsung DVD player. I did not bother hooking my 2807 up with HDMI as my TV has two HDMI inputs so I went directly into the TV with HDMI (from cable DVR and DVD player). Thus bypassing my 2807 with HDMI. I did not want to use the 2807 as a HDMI "switcher" and saw NO benefit of using it in that manner (as nothing I have needs upconverting) seeing that my TV has two HDMI inputs. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1131 Registered: Feb-04 | Holy Moly Cheesteak Frank, you know how to stir things up, don't you? First, I gather you've given up on the TV over the fireplace, along with the question of what to do with that pesky center channel in front of the firebox. I can't blame you there, cuz I've always felt that the wall above a fireplace was only useful for framed art that nobody actually looks at, certainly not a TV--no matter how good the picture may be on it. And speakers in front of the fireplace spoil the campfire, don't they? Just joking...  Ok, so you're going to leave the TV where it's at, and you're going to all this trouble just to rid yourself of that horribly unsightly equipment rack? It's your money my man, just save enough for my sammich OK? I'll try to be brief.... Arty sez A single Toslink or Optical out cable that connects your DVD / HD-DVD / BlueRay to your existing AV Receiver or Pre Processor will carry all the Dolby and DTS sound formats. True enough for the familiar Dolby Digital/DTS 5.1 soundtracks we've been listening to for some time, but TosLink will not carry any of the new and improved digital audio formats like Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio. And even more germane to the original question, neither TosLink nor S/PDIF connections will support SACD. Casey sez The new audio formats gor HD-dvd and Blueray will only transfer through HDMI 1.3 which does not exist yet. HDMI 1.3 hardware is required for the transmission of the new digital audio formats to be carried by HD-DVD and BlueRay, but due to circumstances already determined, HDMI 1.3 will probably never support SACD (or DVD-A). But as Casey says, 1.3 is in the future. Since the HDMI 1.3 standard was determined only a couple months ago, it's only going to be available on equipment sometime in 2007 at the earliest. Casey: So anyone that wants to use an existing receiver/prepro will have to use 6 RCA cables (not 5) to hear the new Dolby and DTS sound formats. True, and this applies to SACD as well. Frank asks Where I am confused at your answer was that cables will not only be useful for SACD but also for the future for a next generation DVD Player. I thought Blue Ray or HDDVD would work through an HDMI connection only and that all the RCA cables I am running for SACD would no longer be needed. The video signal from any BlueRay or HD-DVD player will be carried by a good quality HDMI cable, but as we've already said, the older versions of HDMI (1.1/1.2) will not carry anything but your good old fashioned compressed DD/DTS 5.1 signals as far as surround audio is concerned. In any case, if you want to hear multi-channel SACDs, 6 separate cables will be needed from player to amp. Whether or not you should be concerned with SACD playback is entirely up to you. The question it seems to me, is whether you enjoy surround music sound. But even if the answer to that question is yes, the new question is how long will the SACD format be around. I believe the storage capacity of the blue laser discs will make SACD (and DVD-A) look like Model T's very soon. This would mean the death of these (SACD and DVD-A) high resolution audio formats. This is particularly true since SACD has never enjoyed any sort of universal acceptance in the general marketplace. |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 69 Registered: Aug-06 | Frank, John S pretty much summed it up. As I said before i would go ahead and run the cables so a year from now you are not wishing you had done so and the cost is much higher because its a whole new install. John S Said: The video signal from any BlueRay or HD-DVD player will be carried by a good quality HDMI cable, but as we've already said, the older versions of HDMI (1.1/1.2) will not carry anything but your good old fashioned compressed DD/DTS 5.1 signals as far as surround audio is concerned. In any case, if you want to hear multi-channel SACDs, 6 separate cables will be needed from player to amp. I Posted this from the www.hdmi.org FAQ Q. What functionality was added to each specification? The following provides an overview of major functionality added to each version of HDMI HDMI 1.1 * Support for DVD Audio HDMI 1.2 * Adds features and capabilities that increase HDMI's appeal for use in both the CE and PC industries. Specifically, the features and modifications for HDMI 1.2 include: • Support for One Bit Audio format, such as SuperAudio CD's DSD (Direct Stream Digital) o Changes to offer better support for current and future PCs with HDMI outputs, including: • Availability of the widely-used HDMI Type A connector for PC sources and displays with full support for PC video formats • Ability for PC sources to use their native RGB color-space while retaining the option to support the YCbCr CE color space • Requirement for HDMI 1.2 and later displays to support future low-voltage (i.e., AC-coupled) sources, such as those based on PCI Express I/O technology HDMI 1.2a * Consumer Electronic Control (CEC) features and command sets and CEC compliance tests are now fully specified. * Creation of version 1.2a of the HDMI Compliance Test Specification (CTS), which includes a CEC Supplement. HDMI CTS 1.2a has been updated for technical consistency with HDMI Specification 1.2a as well as to the recently released HDMI Specification 1.2. * o Significantly, CTS 1.2a contains additional cable and connector testing and Authorized Testing Center (ATC) submission requirements. Specifically, under CTS 1.2a, the Adopter shall submit for testing to the ATC any new HDMI cable whose length exceeds previously tested cables. Additionally, HDMI Licensing, LLC will maintain a list of approved connectors. For a device to pass CTS 1.2a testing at an ATC, all connectors on such device must appear on the approved connector list. To add a connector to this list, the vendor must submit to the ATC or HDMI Licensing, LLC full and passing testing results Q: Is HDMI 1.3 backward compatible with prior releases of the HDMI spec and with DVI? Yes, HDMI is fully backward compatible with all prior releases of the HDMI spec, as well as DVI compliant devices. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 43 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks to all for your continued help and advice. John, I really appreciate your input because you've been providing some great expertise to my situation for quite sometime now and i am learning enough to be dangerous, so thanks again. I did contact my new installer (Mike) and told him that I want the 6 cables run for SACD. Like Tommy said, it is relatively cheap to do and I don't want to look back and feel as though I made a mistake. From what I have been reading about SACD, the sound is superior to the standard audio CD formats, so I would like to take advantage of that even if it may phase out down the road. You guys also taught me a little bit aboyt HD DVD and Blue Ray and I realize that when we go to hook up the HDMI cable to the DVD player for this new installation, it will only be 1.1 and still need to be changed in the future to 1.3. Question - for those rich folks who already own a Blue Ray DVD Player today - how do they have it hooked up, since HDMI 1.3 is not out yet. Just curious.. By the way, John - I still have money for a "sammich" even after I have relocated the rack in the basement. Just to update you on the Center Speaker dilemna - I decided that I'm going to trade in my Huge paradigm CC570 Center and get the new Paradigm Millenia 20 which is still part of the Reference Series (so its timbre matched), but the speaker is considerably smaller (much less deeep and high), so it will fit nicely on my mantle just under the Plasma. With moving the rack, I can also now move the two Paradigm fronts out a bit so I'll now have about 8 ft. between them instead of the current 6 feet and yes John - I'll be able to safely have my campfire (as you term it). Thanks again to all. I am also going to hook up the Plasma and DVD with HDMI cables and get rid of the component wires while I'm at it. |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 279 Registered: Jun-05 | John S nice summary but just to make one point clear. Just because todays equipment lacks HDMI 1.3 does not mean you can not get Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD,DTS-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio. These formats will be available with the same 6 anolog cables used for SACD/DVD-A. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1136 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks Casey. I thought I made that clear when I quoted you in my previous post: "Casey: So anyone that wants to use an existing receiver/prepro will have to use 6 RCA cables (not 5) to hear the new Dolby and DTS sound formats. "True, and this applies to SACD as well." To clarify Frank's question: for those rich folks who already own a Blue Ray DVD Player today - how do they have it hooked up, since HDMI 1.3 is not out yet. Just curious.. The video bandwidth for HDMI 1.1 is more than adequate to handle the demands of current hidef video transmission. (Happily, even though HDMI is the hookup of choice, the component outputs of HD-DVD and Blu-ray deliver hidef video as well.) The new HDMI version 1.3 increases the video bandwidth to far beyond the requirements of current state-of-the-art 1080p displays. The range of possible colors a TV can display (color space) is increased to almost double that of existing HDTV technology. And as we've already discussed, 1.3 will convey the massive bitstreams required for the new "lossless" multi-channel digital audio that will be available on HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs. In thinking about Frank's proposed system hookup change, a couple of questions come to mind. Let's say Frank decides at some point to jump in to one of the new hidef disc players. (I do believe we all will own one eventually.) He would then want to use the multi-channel analog output for audio from the new player thus requiring disconnecting those wires from his CD player. Now how is the audio from the CD player going to be conveyed to the Rotel downstairs? Will the new hidef DVD player play regular CD's, and if so, how will it sound? And will that new player play SACDs? It is unclear to me whether even future Sony Blu-ray machines will support SACD playback. So Frank's playing of CDs and SACDs may be problematic. The installer could run 12 analog wires downstairs, but then the problem is that the Rotel no doubt has only one set of multi-channel analog inputs.... Frank, the center channel change sounds like the best compromise. I don't believe that smaller speaker will quite have the resonance of the much bigger CC570. Maybe with some tone adjustments if you have that capability, will help. But hopefully I'm wrong about that. |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 71 Registered: Aug-06 | Since he already doesn't own any SACD's now, i don't think its time to start buying since they will probably just become another collector's item like laserdiscs. i would be more concerned about utilizing the multi-channel analog connections for upcoming technology and not the aging soon to be extinct. i'm sure if he buys a new high def player in the future it would be to replace his current one. another thing about Rotel, Frank, i don't know what reciever/processor you own but with my RSX-1057 i was disappointed to find that the HDMI inputs only act as a switch and do not recieve the audio signal but only trasfers them to the TV. a seperate audio connection is required to get the DD/DTS signals to the reciever. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1137 Registered: Feb-04 | Tommy, please re-read Frank's first post. He does own "a few" SACDs and the original question was...well you can read it. SACDs could very well end up another "collector's item" like laserdiscs, just like vinyl, tape, etc. So what? Even CDs will become collector's items, probably sooner than you think. There are still lots of people who listen to and buy vinyl LPs. There will be lots of SACDs available for some time. All I said to Frank was that the multi-channel music that SACDs can deliver might be worth it to him. I say that even if he doesn't hear the audio improvement they are supposed to provide. |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 72 Registered: Aug-06 | John S, i did miss the mention of him owning a few SACD's but my only point is obviously he's not an SACD enthusiast now so i think it's probaly not a great time to jump on the SACD band wagon. the issue you raised about how to utilize his one set of multi channel inputs on the Rotel was in question and personally i am more concerned about the up and coming technology. as i believe you said before there are probably better things to come in the world of multi channel music on the new disc formats. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1139 Registered: Feb-04 | The bottom line is that we all agree on running 6 high quality audio cables down to the basement. So rather than just letting them sit there, why not use them for SACD playback? Who knows maybe Frank will not see a need for either hidef disc formats. And maybe he will become an SACD freak, buying titles over the 'net from other "collectors" long after the format is dead. So Frank....are you running HDMI from the DVD player directly across the room to the TV? And what's happening with the cable box? |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 44 Registered: Mar-06 | You guys are good. I just got online as I am still reeling from the Eagles loss to Tampa Bay on a last second 62 yeard field goal. Yow that hurts.. Anyway - I have been reading all of the great feedback and opinions and appreciate everyone's opinions and expertise. I didn't realize In was opening up such a large can of worms.. Let me try to sum alot of this up and also to answer some of John's questions from his last post. Ok - first of all. Yes - I have made the decision to move the equipment to the basement. Here are the details.. The Rotel RSX-1056; Rotel RMB-1095; Comcast HD Box; and the Furman Power Conditioner are all going down into the basement. The Sony DVD Player; Yamaha 5 disc CD Changer and the Phono are being relocated to the rear of the Family Room on some shelves in the armoire for easy access. As I've already mentioned, with ths new found space in the front of the room, I am moving the two front Paradigm Studio 100's out a bit to get greater separation and will now be gettig rid of the CC570 Eye sore Center Speaker and replacing it with the Millenia 20 and positioning it directly on the mantle under the Plasma. John - I realize I am compromising a bit when compared to the CC570, but this speaker is part of a new line that just came out and according to Paradigm Tech. Support, it is timbre matched to the the rest of my speakers so hopefully, it will work out and AND I'll be able to play Paul Bunion with my fireplace! As far as the connections.. First off, I have decided to wire the DVD player for SACD with the 6 extra wires. My installer says this will cost me about another $60.00 (parts and labor) which I can live with. I do own a couple SACDs and will probably buy more because everything I've heard is that the sound quality is considerably better than the regular CDs and as you know,. I am an audio first and video second kinda guy. From reading the various posts, it also sounds like I cold benefit by this down the road anyway, so its a win-win. By the way - just for fun, I'm also adding a 2 channel EQ to the setup for the Yamaha CD player only. Now, to answer John's questions where he asked - "So Frank....are you running HDMI from the DVD player directly across the room to the TV? And what's happening with the cable box?.." Funny you should ask that John because this is one of the last issues I am dealing with before I go ahead and pull the trigger on the entire deal.. Here's my plan - My plan is to run HDMI from the Comcast High Def Box directly into the LG Plasma HMMI(1) input. This is about a 12 foot run. The issue I'm facing here is that my Comcast Box soes not have an HDMI outout on the back - only DVI. It is my understanding from Comcast that the only way to get a straight HDMI output is to upgrade to a DVR box and I'm not paying for that! So, I am contemplating either buying a DVI to HDMI cable or getting a DVI to HDMI adaptor and then going HDMI to HDMI. Anyone have any thoughts on which is the better way to go? As far as the Sony DVD. Yes, I am running it across the room to the TV. I am buying a 35 foot HDMI to HDMI cable to go from the Sony DVD to the LG Plasma HDMI(2)input. I was told that this long length would be ok especially since I am going to use top quality Monster cables. All of this will replace my current "Component 1 and 2" hookups which I know John is very familar with since he helped me several months ago when tis was being done.. I am assured that everything will remain the same including my big issue which is the ability to play the TV with the Rotel on or off. I will miss not seeing my Comcast Box (for the channel display) and also the volume display on my Rotel RSX-1056, but I think ythere is a way to display the volume control setting directly on the Plasma screen from the 1056 which I am now looking into. So, you can see I've at least tried to do my homework. If anything I said does not sound right or if I've missed something or haven't thought something through correctly, please let me know before its too late. Once again, Thanks to all! |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 73 Registered: Aug-06 | John S, i agree 100% Frank, this is going to be one heck of an install. first off in reference to HDMI to DVI cable vs. HDMI to DVI adapter, i would go with the adapter. this way you will still have an HDMI cable if you end up with a new updated cable box in the future that has HDMI and are not stuck with a cable you can't use. beware that i have seen compatibility issues with more than one comcast box going DVI to HDMI. the only way to display the volume from the Rotel on the plasma while you are watching it is to run your video signals through it via component video. if you do this you will not be taking advatage of your DVDs upconversion so you need to make your decision what is more important. the other advantage to having it set up this way is your reciever acts as a video switch and you don't need to switch inputs on the plasma. oh and too bad about your eagles, im looking forwards to tha Boys taking down the giants tommorow night ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1142 Registered: Feb-04 | Tommy: beware that i have seen compatibility issues with more than one comcast box going DVI to HDMI There are sometimes "handshake" recognition issues between some digital cable boxes and some digital displays, and the only way to find out if there's a problem is to try it. Frank: The Sony DVD Player; Yamaha 5 disc CD Changer and the Phono are being relocated to the rear of the Family Room on some shelves in the armoire for easy access. Phono? You mean you have one of those curious machines I believe they used to call turntables on which plastic platters were spun while being scraped by needles? As I recall, phono cartridges are very low output, so the question is, is a 30 ft. hookup downstairs too much length for the signal before it goes into your pre-amp stage downstairs? Tommy: Too bad about those "Boys." GO BENGALS!  |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 45 Registered: Mar-06 | Hello John, Yes - I mean a turntable where those plastic platters are scraped by needles. It is already set up today in the current configuration, so really I have no choice other than to relocate it with everything else being that I have about 400 albums and about 200 old 45's. I don't play them all that much, but every once in a while, I fire up those plastic platters when I want to remember my childhood days of the 70s and 80s. Since the Rotel 1056 receiver does not have a phono input, I had previously purchased a used Rotel phono-pre amp which will be located with the turntable. I will also be equalizing the phono to get a better sound. My installer did not mention any issues with a 30 foot hookup for the phono, but since you raised it - I will ask him.. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1143 Registered: Feb-04 | Frank, I'm pretty sure that, with a phono preamp, you shouldn't have a problem. The phono preamp's signal strength shouldn't be any less than the CD player's analog output. I am an audio first and video second kinda guy. Yes, and you have the audio gear to prove that statement, imo. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1144 Registered: Feb-04 | Also Frank, that Millenia Series is hot hot hot from what I can tell on the 'net. People are buying them with no audition based solely on Paradigm's rep. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 47 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for your feedback, John. As far as the Phono, I did talk to the installer about your concern about the 30 foot run, but he wasn't sure and was honest with me that he has minimal experience with wiring phonos. He said we have two options with the phone wiring installation, and I want get your opinion. Option 1 - Locate the Phono pre-Amp directly with the phono upstairs, so there is a very short run between the phono and pre amp, but there would be a 30 ft. run between the pre-amp and the Rotel; Option 2 - total opposite which is to locate the phono pre-amp in the basement with the Rotel stuff which gives us a short wiring run between the Rotel and the preamp, but a 30 ft. run between the Rotel and the actual phono. Opinions on which way to go? By the way - I know the Millenia series is very hot right now and I really believe I made a good choice in using the Millenia 20 to replace my bohemeth CC570. We'll see when its all done, but i did a ton of research on this (as you know). Finally, thanks to all for your great advice (especially you, John), and my open invitation still stands for some Philly Cheesteaks; Soft Pretzels and water ice. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1145 Registered: Feb-04 | Frank, Option 1 is the only way to go. Think about it...does it make sense to send a weak signal down 30 ft of wire to the phono amp? Better to amp it first, then send a more robust signal to your receiver. Whatever the outcome with the center channel ends up being, the one thing I can safely predict is that the front soundstage will be different. One thing is that the center will be closer to the TV, and that's good. That new Paradigm center speaker looks impressive: a three way with two each mid-bass, two each midrange and a nice looking dome tweeter. On its side, it is only 5 1/8 inches tall. I see your other thread about the video info display, and I'm not sure there's an easy answer, but I will think about it. Hopefully sombody will come up with a solution so I don't have to tax my brain too much. One thing, though. I want to make sure you haven't lost sight regarding wiring so the TV can be watched without having the Rotel turned on. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 48 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks John. Yes, I'm hoping some of the experts out there can help me with the On-Screen Menu display issue. Don't worry - I haven't at all lost sight of the wiring issue with TV on by itself or on with the Rotel (you have a great memory). I already mentioned this to my installer that this remains my number 1 priority and he seemed to speak very logically and intelliently about his understanding of what to do. Why do you bring this up? Do you think the use of straight HDMI connections from the Comcast Box to the TV will cause a problem with what had already been done? Please let me know. Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1147 Registered: Feb-04 | I was just reminding you to make sure Mike is aware of why the analog audio/video connections from the cable box should be maintained into the plasma, that's all. Changing over to HDMI from the cable box (via DVI>HDMI adaptor) should not otherwise affect basic operation and should result in a better picture. This is assuming the program listings are output through the cable box's DVI output. |
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