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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 22 Registered: Apr-06 | In a 5.1 setup, does the Sub need to be Timbre matched or from the same brand? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 193 Registered: Nov-05 | nope, aint possible |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 194 Registered: Nov-05 | timbre match a sub that is |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9114 Registered: May-04 | . Why not? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1868 Registered: Feb-04 | 'cos there's not much timbre at 80 Hz and below to match. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9115 Registered: May-04 | . There's at least two and one half octaves worth coming out of the sub. There's got to be some timber there somewhere. |
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Silver Member Username: ShahrukhdMumbai, Maharashtra India Post Number: 154 Registered: Nov-04 | Some timbre maybe. But none that would make a heaven and hell diff to the overall sound. Timbre match your centre speaker with the main fronts. That's most important!! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1869 Registered: Feb-04 | Right. The center and mains need to timbre-match because they output mostly the same frequency range, thus the matching. Since the sub picks up where the speakers leave off, there is no real matching required because they don't overlap. Add to that the fact that the frequency range of the sub is narrow and at the edge of our hearing, and there's not much timbre to affect in the first place. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9116 Registered: May-04 | . So, a Klipsch sub will work well with B&W speakers? That's hard to believe. Why bother buying much in the way of a sub of it doesn't have much to do? $100-200 bucks and you're done! . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9117 Registered: May-04 | . How about a Mission sub with JBL speakers? That's going to work? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 819 Registered: Nov-05 | Given the Mission position perhaps:-) I have a Richter sub with B&W's and that seems to work - nothing out of kilter timbre wise (though the timber is fake). But then I haven't heard a B&W sub with them to compare. So either timbre matching a sub is important and I'm just lucky - or perhaps it isn't so important. It seems many on this forum have different brand subs to their speakers, I wonder how many tried various brands to timbre match. Oh, and I'm regarding music not HT - with HT it should really matter less. Perhaps younger ears might notice an incongruous sub? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1870 Registered: Feb-04 | There are still various qualities in subs. Also some go real low, while some give up some low end for stronger upper bass. Matching a sub in quality with your speakers doesn't have to equate to timbre matching. I have a Hsu STF-3 and Klipsch speakers and, yeah, it works well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9118 Registered: May-04 | . OK, let's postulate this; a full range speaker where the lowest frequency driver is crossed at about 100Hz or so. Do you suppose the designer bothers to consider whether the lowest octaves sound like the rest? The designer doesn't just pick any driver which "matches" do they? . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1873 Registered: Feb-04 | You mean like a speaker with an integrated subwoofer? :-) |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1876 Registered: Feb-04 | Even the Martin Logan Summit crosses over at 270 Hz... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9120 Registered: May-04 | . Yes, an integrated subwoofer. The crossover point is not that important, I don't think. How the crossover is configured would be more important than where it is centered. Many subwoofer Xo's have second order designs; therefore, the sub is still making useable response an octave and one half above its 80Hz crossover point. One and one half octaves above 80Hz would be in the mid 200Hz range. The question is does the designer of that integrated sub consider timbre matching to the rest of the system? . |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 195 Registered: Nov-05 | well, Ive got a paradigm sub, and a aerial sub, the aerial is much better but it sure isnt a timbre match, just quicker, lower, and all around more musical. BTW my speakers are aerials. When listening to either music or HT, the lower notes, or exposions are just that. Many different sounds drop into the subs responsiblity, one example being the male voice, but it sure doesnt throw off the presentation one bit by not being a perfect match, it just fills in the bottom end. The sub isnt required to timbre match a females voice, or much of an acoustical guitars notes being played, which would be very apparant if not matched by the center, and mains, or for that matter just the two mains in 2.1, or 2.2 listening. The subs responsibility are the lower notes, some which we cant even hear. I will agree there are sonic differences in each brand of subwoofer made, but a timbre match? Sorry Jan, Ive had too many systems with and without the same brand sub, and your analogy of spending 1-200 just doesnt make sense, a good sub will just perform better period, it has nothing to do with being matched or not. A sub is good, or a sub is bad. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 196 Registered: Nov-05 | Also, I couldve swore he said 5.1, not integrated. If its integrated its not really a subwoofer in my eyes, just part of the speaker. In which case is responsible for much more of the midrange as well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9122 Registered: May-04 | . OK, blame PG. He's the one who called it that. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 197 Registered: Nov-05 | PG I blame you! |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1077 Registered: Dec-03 | Just for clarification, the crossover point for two drivers is that frequency in which they share the same attenuation, not when the attenuation for a particular driver begins. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1879 Registered: Feb-04 | :-) I called it that because that's usually what it is. I blame JV for trying to make up an impossible scenario of a speaker with a low frequency driver with a 100 Hz crossover point, only to try to make his point about timbre at those frequencies. Those drivers are usually called integrated subwoofers (and are usually amplified too). Hey Tim, you're the loudspeaker designer here. Do you believe you need to timbre-match a sub to main speakers, as JV believes? Or would you say no,as the rest of us do? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 200 Registered: Nov-05 | PG, Ill rephrase your question, or add to it I guess. Tim, is it even possible to timbre match the sub? From my limited knowledge Ill stick with no, but am interested in your response anyhow. BTW,............JV I now blame you! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4081 Registered: Dec-04 | Match your rolloffs, watch the swings from(rare) 2nd order XO's and let er rip. Don't matter for an add on sub, until you get to REL or M&K, then you'd best be ready anyhow. No matching. Till Tim kicks my but(again). Tim, the Ling's are absolutely singing. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1078 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Nuck. This seems more a battle of terms. Heck, the term "subwoofer" may need defining first. Is it really a "sub"-woofer or a "bass unit"? I think it's more an issue of "integration" for a couple of reasons. If you choose a "crossover point" (please see my earlier definition) of 80Hz this means the sub will not be playing into the realm usually associated with satellite speakers because the crossover is rolling off the sub below this point. As Jan said, typically 12db/octave though some of the better ones will do 24db/octave. However, it does mean that both the mains and the "sub" are contributing half of the sound of that 80Hz frequency. This could easily become a "timbre" issue. If the mains are playing full and you've chosen an 80Hz "corner frequency" you can be assured the "sub" will effect the "timbre" of the system because it will be adding significantly to the frequencies well above 80Hz. This is where the challenge of integrating a sub into a 2 channel system occurs as most of you well know. If your mains don't roll off until 50Hz and you're playing them full what kind of sub are you going to use? One of those little mini-modules or something that can get subterranean? And where is your "corner frequency" going to be with a 12db/octave slope? Another issue is bass reproduction "accuracy". Some may call it "fast bass" which I think is a nonsensical term. If your mains are clean, accurate speakers you want a sub to match. High motor strength and low voice coil inductance are the biggest contributors to "accurate" bass. This is why you're unlikely to use a $100 sub with your $5000 mains. Once again, the $100 sub will probably be incapable of playing below the mains at a level that will integrate well. Additionally, it's unlikely to possess a motor of sufficient quality to integrate well with the mains. Bottom line; adding a "subwoofer" to a system requires the same thought as the choice of a woofer to a 3-way system. It needs to integrate well with the other speakers and requires the selection of a proper "crossover point". This is much less an issue in home theater with most AV receivers having integrated active crossovers. Adding a subwoofer to a good 2 channel system can be a real challenge and expensive too. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9126 Registered: May-04 | . I don't think my sceneario was all that far fetched. And, given sufficient time, without the interference of those responsible, I would have found the driver and the strawberries to prove the conspiracy. Don't you miss Humphrey Bogart? Even if the speaker is not full range, the designer will have given some consideration to the "timbre" of the lowest frequency driver and the rest of the system. Assuming, of course, we are discussing a reasonably well thought out system. A pair of M&K satellites without their sub typically doesn't sound right, in my opinion. And I just can't see the engineers at Harbeth deciding to use that JBL low frequency driver because it matches their product so well. Or any manufacturer committed to paper pulp drivers matching to a poly coned low frequency driver. Not that everyone needs to rush to give examples which refute my last statement. Just because it's being done doesn't make it correct. I think ignoring "timbre" when choosing a sub doesn't always result in the best performance from the system. . |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 201 Registered: Nov-05 | I will agree with Tim, that the sub needs to integrate with the system, but Im still not going to cooperate and say that the sub can be timbre matched. My system is fairly nice, and I know for a fact that the designer did not timbre match my sub to the system I have, nor for the other lines of speakers he designs. Ive yet to hear a sub sound like its speakers. Maybe Im just an idiot, and have lost my hearing so much I cant notice? verdict is still out. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9130 Registered: May-04 | . I take that to mean you won't agree until you get an opinion which concurs with what you already believe. Lordy God, that's what got us into Iraq. Might I ask how you know the designer did not timbre match the sub to the system? If the sub doesn't sound like the speakers, doesn't that create quite a discontinuity between the two systems? Well, maybe not if you don't hear it. But, I would think it certainly could. Sorry, Dave, but it seems silly to buy a sub that doesn't sound like the speakers it is meant to match. You know, unless you're only spending a few hundred bucks. Then who cares? The first sub I bought for my HT system was just a matter of not being a piece of crap for what I spent. It's long gone now. How'd you pick this sub for these speakers? Did you listen before you bought it or just went on a recommendation? No offense meant, just asking questions. And what's wrong with cooperation? What will have to be said for you to agree? That you are right and what has been said isn't what I think is true? Seems rather restrictive, if you ask me. But, then I guess there are some people who wish I'd never asked, "Why not?" Let's ask it this way; at what point does the low frequency driver need to be timbre matched to the rest of the system? Is it where the systems cross? Or is it the cost of the systems? Surely there must be a point where the designer says this driver just doesn't work with this other driver. . |
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Silver Member Username: ShahrukhdMumbai, Maharashtra India Post Number: 155 Registered: Nov-04 | Where's Juggy?? |
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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 23 Registered: Apr-06 | Hi Shahrukh, I am right here. still in a dilemma..... "To Timbre Match the Sub or Not" |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9132 Registered: May-04 | . How much are you going to spend on the sub and what speakers will it mate? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 202 Registered: Nov-05 | Dallas , TX "I take that to mean you won't agree until you get an opinion which concurs with what you already believe. Lordy God, that's what got us into Iraq." Im still waiting to hear Tim say he timbre matches his subs! "Might I ask how you know the designer did not timbre match the sub to the system? If the sub doesn't sound like the speakers, doesn't that create quite a discontinuity between the two systems? Well, maybe not if you don't hear it. But, I would think it certainly could. Sorry, Dave, but it seems silly to buy a sub that doesn't sound like the speakers it is meant to match. You know, unless you're only spending a few hundred bucks. Then who cares? The first sub I bought for my HT system was just a matter of not being a piece of crap for what I spent. It's long gone now." Because if he did timbre match the sub, he wouldve replied back to me that it is timbre matched...........what I got back was "it will compliment any fine music or home theater system" "How'd you pick this sub for these speakers? Did you listen before you bought it or just went on a recommendation? No offense meant, just asking questions." No offense taken. Had listened to quite a few before getting the aerial, it was a toss up between that and velodyne DD15, which I still like better, but got a great deal so couldnt pass up. The velodyne is the same scenario, best sub for the money, it has been used with 3 different setups, and this is the third setup it has blended nicely with, (hafler pro series, NHT 2.9, and now the aerial 9s) I wonder if paradigm matches their subs to all of these brands? They are pretty popular! Now, I took my NHT sw12si, and SA2 amp down to the basement room which has BA VR2s and inserted it into the system, guess what, IT SOUNDS MUCH BETTER, I am crossed over at 80, sub set at 90 to ensure no gap, and I cant tell where the sub starts and stops, it just fits in nicely. Bass notes do not appear to be from two different instruments, nor does it appear that when a broadcaster is speaking that his evil twin is somewhere near! IOW, you cant tell the sub is even there. Same with the system upstairs, only there the quality is far greater. "And what's wrong with cooperation? What will have to be said for you to agree? That you are right and what has been said isn't what I think is true?" If I hadnt had so many different systems over the years,or blended so many different brands together with success, I would fall in line and say YES SIR! I wont go as far as to say IM RIGHT, but I also wont say that the sub is timbre matched. Ive yet to even see a sub marketed by a designer that states a perfect match for its line of speakers and none else. "Seems rather restrictive, if you ask me. But, then I guess there are some people who wish I'd never asked, "Why not?" and ya went and did it anyway! "Let's ask it this way; at what point does the low frequency driver need to be timbre matched to the rest of the system? Is it where the systems cross? Or is it the cost of the systems? Surely there must be a point where the designer says this driver just doesn't work with this other driver." Are we still talking a seperate sub, or something like my NHT 2.9s where the "sub' is part of the speaker? In which case it is just a driver, and part of the speaker (to me) I think of it this way, lets say I brought over my aerial sub to your place, you own such and such brand front speakers, moderately expensive too! And you own such and such subwoofer that you thought was great to integrate into your system...............because it matched,...........and were very happy,...........until now. Why? Because once we inserted the Aerial into the mix, your whole system sounds more refined, bass plays lower notes than youve ever heard,and your amazed at how just a sub could make such a difference in the overall presentation of your system. Especially from a different brand. I think it is possible we are discussing two different scenarios here, I will agree if the sub is part of the speaker, it will be of the same line of drivers, and helps the certain signature of that speaker, but when a seperate sub is added, I cannot agree that there will be a timbre match, like I said earlier in the thread, either the sub is good, or the sub is bad! |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 203 Registered: Nov-05 | Also, I think PG said it best earlier in this thread "There are still various qualities in subs. Also some go real low, while some give up some low end for stronger upper bass. Matching a sub in quality with your speakers doesn't have to equate to timbre matching." |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9134 Registered: May-04 | . Right, and the wood veneers don't have to match either. That doesn't mean it won't look better if they do, and that doesn't mean it won't sound better if you do timbre match. You have me confused about when you consider a low frequency driver part of the speaker system. If you place a subwoofer into your system you become the designer and you decide what qualities you want in the entire system. You are merely taking a powered driver and inserting it into your existing system. Why wouldn't you give the same attention to that piece of equipment that you would expect from someone who designed the whole system? I'm not suggesting you must buy a Paradigm subwoofer if you have Paradigm satellites. But I am suggesting that some thought should be given to how the sub will integrate in the crossover region with the satellite speakers. I do not disparage your opinion of how your sub works with your speakers but neither do I take that as absolute proof any sub can be mated with any speakers. I have seldom heard anyone say my stuff sucks unless they are looking for an excuse to get something new. Most folks are pretty pleased with what they buy and will seldom say bad things about what they chose. Finally, what do you expect the designer to say, "Don't buy my product unless you are committed to my speakers"? I suspect he wants to sell something or else he wouldn't have gone into business to do just that. . |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1080 Registered: Dec-03 | "Im still waiting to hear Tim say he timbre matches his subs!" All the woofers used in my commercial designs have been designed by the same engineer and possess very similar acoustic properties, so in a sense, yes. That is not to say another brand of sub wouldn't work well, I'm sure it could. It was more a matter of increased assurance. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 204 Registered: Nov-05 | "I'm not suggesting you must buy a Paradigm subwoofer if you have Paradigm satellites." Why not? If in fact you have a timbre match. If your convinced there is a timbre match, then it should only be from the same brand correct? I think that your sub should be equal or greater in quality compared to your main speakers, but dont expect a match. Placement of the subs (as youve actually helped me with before) is more beneficial to integration than that of the same brand, as we both have stated in this thread. Placement in a corner will be boomy somewhere in the room no? Or some other placement will be a thin, weak, and unrefined sound. I think the designer is stating that they've created a sub that recreates quality bass. Or deep bass, or tight bass, or earthshaking bass etc.etc. etc. Finally, my NHT sub fit in nicely with the aerials, .............at lower volumes, but when called upon to deliver the same punch that the system required at times, .........well it pooped out, hence the insertion of the aerial,(still wish I couldve gotten the DD15) which can sustain the demands, and not falter at any level, which leads me to once again say that the quality of the sub should match, or exceed the main speakers, but dont expect a timbre match. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 205 Registered: Nov-05 | So, Tim, if I were to purchase your speakers (which I may in the future based on what Ive heard) you would say that if I were to buy a DD15, and not your sub, I wouldnt get as quality of lower end than what you intended. Or would it be that the DD15 is better or worse? And I would notice where the DD15 starts, and your speakers stop? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 206 Registered: Nov-05 | confused yet Juggy? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9135 Registered: May-04 | . No, you're confusing what I said. You don't have to buy a Paradigm sub for Paradigm speakers. Yes, the chance the sub will integrate with the satelites is probably very high with this sort of matching. However, that doesn't obviate the possibility that another brand of low frequency system won't match as well as the priority line. Particularly using Canadian speakers, the chances are quite good that another company's low frequency driver might match well with the Paradigm. As with the Boston area speakers of the 1960's and '70's, there is a common sound which runs through many of the Canadian speakers which share similar testing facilites and enjoy a tremendous amount of nepotisim between brands when it comes to designers. I would expect the same possibilites between many of the BBC oriented companies in England. I'm not excluding the possibiltiy you could find a low frequency system which you preferred over the line of speakers you chose. But I am suggesting there are some obvious dissimilarities between what various companies are striving for in their designs and to mix and match might give you less performance rather than more. I see the "sub" as just another component which should be matched in personality just as you would a pre amp to a power amplifier. When you say the "quality of the sub should match", what about timbre is not included in the term "quality"? To me timbre is a part of quality which I consider in all my components. I don't typically match solid state bipolar transistor components with my tube amplifiers. That is as much a matter of timber as anything else. While I won't dispute placement is critical to getting the best performance and integration with your sub and satellites, I don't think I can agree that placement is more "beneficial" to integration than timbre matching. If the low frequency system isn't a match to the main speakers, no amount of placement can correct that problem. . |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 207 Registered: Nov-05 | I say we agree to disagree. I guess we are kinda like two ships passing in the night. Both horns blowing at the same time! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9136 Registered: May-04 | . NO, NO, NO, NOT YET, NOT YET, I'VE GOT SOMETHING BRILLIANT TO SAY. Aw, never mind, it can wait. Agree to disagree as much as possible after what Tim said. . |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 209 Registered: Nov-05 | And I was reading Tims response favoring my side! Especially the part about "increased assurance" and "in a sense" I gotta go to work! Go ahead and leave the brilliant response, it'll give me something to look forward to when I get home! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9137 Registered: May-04 | . Now I forget what I was going to say. Rest assured, it was brilliant. |
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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 24 Registered: Apr-06 | I am planning on Mordaunt Short 908i as fronts. So, Does the material used to make the Speaker cones, or the Finish (wood or other), play a role when matching Sub to the Speakers? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1081 Registered: Dec-03 | The 908i has metal mid-woofs and a 10" paper woofer. Interesting isn't it? Silly question but, why are you adding a subwoofer to a speaker system that has a built in bass unit? |
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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 25 Registered: Apr-06 | For Movies, the dealer suggested that I shud use a Sub with the MS-908i. He said the Velodyne Subs wud do a better job than the MS sub. My next option is the Quad 11L. But the Quad Sub is a lil too expensive for me. Then came the big Q - Timbre Match |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1082 Registered: Dec-03 | So, you're looking at the 908i which is rated to 35Hz so apparently you need a sub to fill the 35Hz and down area. Hmmm.... I'm not looking at brands here, just the concept. Why pay extra for the side firing woofer if you're going to add a sub anyway? Am I getting off topic now? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 210 Registered: Nov-05 | This'll be quick, then Im out of this. My NHTs had side firing woofers, powered seperately by a sub amp. I still had an additional sub. Regardless of a woofer being able to reproduce down to say 35, or even 30Hz, it will still not outperform a seperate sub. Theres just that added dimension that a sub allows you to enjoy. Think Pink Floyd "dark side of the moon" W/O a seperate sub, you miss quite a bit of info. Also there are many movies that info would be lost, you wouldnt notice it, until you added a sub, but would notice what you were missing once you added the sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1083 Registered: Dec-03 | Too bad you're "out of this" because I still don't understand the benefit of a side firing 10" woofer and a separate sub. Just as a quick thought, why not stand mounted TMs or MTMs and a separate sub? What if you could get improved mids and highs from a floorstander that only reached to 50 or 60Hz for the same price and added a separate sub? Is that possible or is the tower with the side firing 10" woofer still going to be the better option? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 211 Registered: Nov-05 | I think were way off subject now. The benefit first of all is the information you wont get with most integrated subs(drivers really), whether side firing or even just a bigger woofer. Your idea for TMs, or MTMs, is a fine idea, as a matter of fact I almost went with the LR5s instead of the 9s in my case. It can sound good, but Im not so sure you get improved mids and highs just because of the configuration though, it still has to be quality gear. Besides all of that, doesnt your scenario take us right back to whether or not we have to timbre match the sub? I think the better option is the best speaker at that price point, whatever it is, floorstander, or bookshelf, for whatever particular sound the person likes, then add a quality sub. With no concern of a timbre match. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 212 Registered: Nov-05 | guess Im not out of this! call in the troops! mayday! mayday! mayday! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9139 Registered: May-04 | . I'm with more or less with Tim here. If JJ's intentions are to use a powered "subwoofer" to supplement the lowest octaves, there is no particular reason for, and several against, using full range speakers for the main front pair. The problem is there are several good reasons to use a full range speaker as the main front pair. Timber matching of all octaves is one of them. I think it fair to assume the designer of a well thought out full range system would have put some effort into the best integration of all drivers. However, what the person buying the speakers hears should be the rule of the day and JJ should not base your decision upon what I hear. If JJ is happy with the combination the dealer suggests, the issue of "timbre matching" should be solved. (For HT purposes, what is the timbre of an explosion? That's why you're buying the sub for HT, not to hear the lowest octaves of a Bosendorfer piano.) If you can't hear any problems, don't assume they exist. Don't make this harder than it needs to be. Buy the sub and live with it. This isn't a life and death decision. And for HT use, many listeners want a subwoofer that has independent level control (separate from the main speakers) which allows them to crank it up for action movies. I can only assume that is why the dealer is suggesting a powered sub. I do hope the dealer isn't just selling a rote system where center and sub are part of the package merely because that's what people and the salesperson think they need for a good HT system. In my opinion, neither center nor sub is required for HT and selling them just because you always have inidcates a lazy dealer rather than one who wants to help the client find the best solutions to their particular needs. JJ will have to decide what his situation with the dealer is and go from there. Still, personally, I would opt for smaller main speakers combined with a supplemental low frequency system. If the main speakers you are now considering can reproduce 35Hz on paper, you might want to listen to them without any further extension and decide whether a subwoofer will be an addition or a distraction. 35Hz on paper should translate to mid twenties in room response. How much lower do you need? Level is a different issue and that is where a powered sub has the edge. But, then, that system can easily be accomplished without full range main speakers. A speaker that rolls off at 50Hz will also have extension beneath that point in room. For music only, this would probably be enough actual extension for to cover the requirements of most material. Whether it would be sufficient level is another question only JJ can answer. The smaller speaker will probably have better imaging, which might actually help alleviate the need for a center speaker. (Center speakers are not a requirement in my opinion. They are part of the package people hear in theaters and they have been successfully packaged as a "requirement" for HT use. The reason they exist in theaters is to accomodate people sitting well off axis from a central position relative to the screen. When you sit on the far side of the theater, the center speaker is helpful in locating dialogue and foley effects which should be placed away from your side of the screen. The reason center speakers have been successsful in HT, other than the additional revenue from more speaker sales, is the HT system quite often goes in the living room of the home. This means many times the main speakers are not set up to give the best imaging and center fill. However, if your front speakers are set up properly and no one will sit off to one side, a center speaker might not be required.) For HT, you will probably want a subwoofer for additional impact. A self contained low frequency system can be better placed for its own purposes while leaving the smaller mains in place where they work best. So, both mains and sub get placement which suits their own needs while sacrificing little along the way. About the only time I would suggest full range speakers up front (controlled response to 30Hz in room) and a subwoofer (clean response to 20Hz on paper) is when the budget is not a consideration and the sub can really extend and improve the performance of the main system. I don't know the speakers JJ is considering, so he will have to decide whether this applies to his situation. My experience says what I've suggested is a pricey combination, but maybe things have changed in the last few years. In any event, any dealer worth doing business with should allow JJ the oportunity to audition either system for a night or weekend without cost. (A credit card deposit will be required.) If JJ decides on the full range main speaker system, he should ask for the loan of a subwoofer for a few nights so he can decide whether it serves any significant function in his system. To get the sub installed correctly and quickly for an audition, JJ should be able to ask the salesperson to come help him with placement and set up. (This doesn't apply if you live twenty miles or more from the store, JJ.) At the very least JJ should be able to bring a diagram of his room into the dealer for assistance in placement. After JJ has made his decision on what to own, he sould place "speaker set up" and "subwoofer set up" into a search engine and spend some time finding the best location for his speakers in his room. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 26 Registered: Apr-06 | Thanx a lot Jan. I have talked to the dealer, and will be doing a Home Demo with a couple of Sub Brands. And I take it, from all this discussion, that Timbre Match doesnt apply to the Sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1084 Registered: Dec-03 | In my opinion, given your situation, don't worry about it. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9141 Registered: May-04 | . Tim's probably right in that assessment. When you are auditioning the systems, use some vocals to assess what is happening. The crossover region where the main speakers and the sub share duties will be the most apparent location for any problems that might arise. Don't go looking for problems but be aware of how the vocals sound with the sub in the system and out of the system. And make certain you have the sub located properly before you do any comparisons. For music sources, you might notice some difference. For HT purposes, if for no other reason than the quickly fluctuations between vocal qualities in film and TV (closely mic'd, environmentally mic'd, over dubbing, etc.), you will be hard pressed to justify a difference would be my guess. . |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 215 Registered: Nov-05 | Juggy, what'd ya do? I for one am interested in your results, or journey as it may still be. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4119 Registered: Dec-04 | Me too! However, I am not looking to timbre match, simply reinforce bass on some recordings. |
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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 27 Registered: Apr-06 | I am planning to check out Velodyne CHT-10R Sub as well as Wharfedale SW-150. Will be deciding on one of these. Will use the Sub mainly for HT, and for the Music, I think the floorstanders will do a good job themselves. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9142 Registered: May-04 | . So, you'll be switching the sub out of the system when you play music? Is this something that will be convenient with the processor you're buying? |
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Bronze Member Username: Juggy_25Post Number: 28 Registered: Apr-06 | I am planning to buy a Marantz SR-7500 Wudnt I be able to avoid the Sub on the stereo mode? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9143 Registered: May-04 | . I don't know. Anyone familair with the Marantz SR-7500? On most receivers, unless you are running a line for SACD or DVD-A type analog inputs, the sub will be commanded to play for all input sources and selecting not to have the sub play for just one input isn't possible. . |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 216 Registered: Nov-05 | Your reciever may have the option of a "super sub" meaning it will be on even in stereo mode, and while having front speakers set to large. On my Anthem, if I set speakers to large, and subwoofer yes, Sub only comes on during 5.1, DTS, or 6.1 playback. But if I set sub to "super" subs are active during all playback, which I actually prefer(I like not missing any info, especially since Im a huge floyd fan) So, check your user guide, or call manufacturer, or salesperson if he/she is knowledgeable enough and see what kind of answer you get. Now, if you have to have sub always on in your settings, it should be easy enough to just power it down during your 2 channel listening. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1909 Registered: Feb-04 | Some receivers let you setup speakers differently for each diffrent input. That is the case with h/k receivers (e.g. main at small/40 Hz on DVD and large on CD, but at leas mine doesn't let me switch cutoff frequencies as well, which is unfortunate). |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1087 Registered: Dec-03 | I think JJ has it right. If you select the "Stereo" mode AND have either a PCM or analog input it will defeat the LFE channel and direct all sound to the L/R mains. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 217 Registered: Nov-05 | Could there also be an advanced crossover setting somewhere in menus that allow you to customize each input? Anthem does have this feature, Im not sure about the others, anyone? |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 218 Registered: Nov-05 | Tim, unless there is a setting somewhere in his menu that allows for custom configuration. Which Anthem does have. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 219 Registered: Nov-05 | ie. "super" |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1910 Registered: Feb-04 | The 7200 doesn't appear to let setup speakers differently for each input. Not only that, but I think the sub cut-off frequency is fixed at 100 Hz! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9144 Registered: May-04 | . I take it no one here is familiar with the Marantz SR-7500. JJ, you might want to ask about this before you make a purchase based on a wrong assumption. Or, possibly find an owner's manual on line and find out for yourself rather than trust what someone else might not know. . |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1088 Registered: Dec-03 | http://us.marantz.com/DFU_SR7500_Final_Eng.pdf Which is where I read about the "Stereo" mode of the 7500 which also has 3 cutoff frequency selections. The "super" mode david refers to is called "mix" on the Marantz. I'm a little surprised at what looks to be limited frequency selections. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1089 Registered: Dec-03 | There I go getting OT again. I'll stop now. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1911 Registered: Feb-04 | No, that was good. I had misread 7500 as 7200 and downloaded the wrong manual. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 220 Registered: Nov-05 | next up................. cable debates! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4125 Registered: Dec-04 | Which cable for that sub network, hmmm.... |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 223 Registered: Nov-05 | balanced only!...................otherwise? I kid, I kid! |