Sony STR-DG500 power
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-06 | I bought a Sony STR-DG500 receiver in order to replace my old Pioneer SX-201 Stereo Receiver. Although the Sony is rated 100w per channel (and the Pioneer only 50w), I can set the Sony almost to the max volume without overdrive my speakers, while whit my Pioneer I could barely reach half of the max. Nevertheless, the Pioneer sound quite louder. What's happening? May my new Sony be defective? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3898 Registered: Dec-04 | Nope. That's the best Sony can do. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10272 Registered: Dec-03 | Now you know what Sony can do, once you start comparing it to other receivers. "It's a Sony!" |
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 2 Registered: Aug-06 | Thanks for yours answers! So...I was fooled by Sony. What I don't understand is that I thought that watts are a objective measure (of something).. Even, in the place I bought the receiver there is an advice against "ratings performed over a smaller frequency range", and they recommend a "full bandwidth power rating" (and, of course, the 100w on the Sony are supposed to be measured with the last criteria).Anyway, thank you very much for your comments. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10276 Registered: Dec-03 | Where did you buy this Sony and who are "they", who recommended a "full bandwidth power rating"? Tell them to explain that to you in plain english and what it means. |
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 3 Registered: Aug-06 | Crutchfield. As bad as Sony? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3899 Registered: Dec-04 | you tell us. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10293 Registered: Dec-03 | Well, they do intend to sell their wares. If you are not happy with your purchase, you can return it and get a different unit. Be advised however, that the newer mass market surround sound system do tend not to sound as loud as the stereo receivers of yore. More speaker output same power supplies (but don't quote me on that). |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 899 Registered: Dec-03 | federico: Well, you have discovered that mass market brands LIE when it comes to power ratings. Here is how it works. The FTC around 1970 promugated a rule that required truth in advertising the power of stereo receivers. That rule requires that both channels be driven simultaneously into an 8 ohm short to verify the power claim. Thus, you old Pioneer puts out a legitimate 50 wpc (x2). However, your new Sony does things differently. The Sony complies with the FTC rule because they also rate their receiver 2 channels at a time. However, now the power is rated only at 1 frequency (1kHz), rather than power across the entire audio range (20Hz-20kHz), which mean there is far less actual power across the audio frequency range. Then, if you try to drive 5 speakers, the power supply craps out. I once saw the bench test of a 100 wpc rated Marantz receiver (the 7200) that when tested with five channels, only produced 27 wpc. Two years ago, the Onkyo TZ-SR901 (rated as 125 wpc x 7) was tested by S&V magazine and it only produced something like 56 wpc when driving 5 channels. I think it was a mere 52 wpc when driving 7 channels. Your new Sony is not defective, but suffers the same maledy. Sony essentially lies about its power, simply because the power supply is far too small to deliver the power they suggest it is capable of producing. This appears to be true of all of the major mass market brands. Most of the participants on this board have receivers from less well known brands (H/K, NAD, Outlaw, etc.) or have gone to seperates because they actually can provide the power they promise and it makes a real difference in the sound. Ultimately, the question is, regardless of how hard it drives your speakers, do you like the sound? If you do, that should be all there is to it. |
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 4 Registered: Aug-06 | Thanks again for your comments. Hard to discover the true (after spending the money...). Anyway, my crappy Sony sounds like a 10w per channel (far far far away form de 100), even my TV (ratted 15w) sounds louder. If you ask me about the sound quality...is hard to say, I'll take a few days and try lo listen whit my eyes shutted. |
|
Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 35 Registered: Mar-06 | FK, your Sony STR-DG500 retails for ~$180.00 at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. Would assume you are on a tight budget; so was I and everybody else at one time. As Nuck commented, >that's the best Sony can do< and that's within your budget. Don't get hung up on FTC power ratings, Harmon Kardon, NAD and all the other stuff. You could spend $180 on speaker cables alone, but you wouldn't have the Sony or music. My opinion, enjoy the Sony STR-DG500, work within a budget - and enjoy the music. |
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 5 Registered: Aug-06 | Two comments: first, people in Crutchfield were very supportive, even they called me (I do live in Argentina!), and offered me to return the receiver. So I got nothing to say about them. Second: when listening FM, the sound volume is acceptable (although is still below the Pioneer), but when using the analog inputs (CD, DVD), I have to turn the volume to half the max just to listen a whisper. Maybe a problem with a pre-amp of analog? Or something like that? |
|
Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1228 Registered: Apr-05 | Federeco you didn't get screwed by Crutchfield. They are a quality organization that I have bought stuff from on and off for 20 years. They supply the spec that they get from the manufacturer. Most people who buy the mass market stuff are happy with it and don't care to get something more. However if you want more sound quality you should probably dig around for a while and do research to know the games that manufacturers and retailers play. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 11 Registered: Jul-06 | I have used a Sony STR-DG500 and it is not THAT underpowered, perhaps you should check your speaker levels and connections? What speakers are you trying to drive with it, did you do the auto clibration? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 12 Registered: Jul-06 | Please note the ratings on the STR-DG500: 8Ohms 20-20kHz: 100W; THD: 0.09% ( http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&cata logId=10001&langId=-1&productId=1002438 ) So it is rated *properly*, and infact specs are far better then any other budget receiver at that price. So chances are you haven't done something correctly. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10775 Registered: Dec-03 | The specs??? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 13 Registered: Jul-06 | What does this url show us exactly? I can't find the STR-DG500 in there, or any remotely recent sony model. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10790 Registered: Dec-03 | It is not specific to the STR-DG500. The point is that Sony receivers are not that great and the specified ratings are not standardized when it comes to power ratings. Don't get too caught up in power ratings and don't ever base your purchase on the wattage. This is rated at 80 watts per channel http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/1070.html Do you think it can compare to the 100 watt Sony? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 14 Registered: Jul-06 | I never tried nor have I seen a test of either model so how can I compare? Until I see the tests there isn't much to say. However this time Sony properly rated their amp: Imp: 8 Ohms Power: 20Hz-20kHz: 100W; THD: 0.09% In the manual it says: With 8ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000hz; rates 100 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more then 0.09% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output. So at least for stereo it does give rated power. To see what it can manage for multichannel I would have to see a test of it. Outlaw claims a nice 65w per channel all channels driven rating, Sony didn't provide such. So not much to say until someone tests it. However for reference Pio VSX-1015TX claims 110w 20-20khz @ 0.09% THD min RMS 2 channels driven in the manual, but according to tests *actually* does manage that 5 channels driven @ 110w 20-20khz 0.09% THD. Until we see a test I wouldn't be guessing. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10792 Registered: Dec-03 | How do you know that Sony properly rated their amp? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 15 Registered: Jul-06 | from the manual for the STR-DG500: With 8ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000hz; rates 100 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more then 0.09% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output. So for stereo output it is rated properly. That is, *it will* give you the promised 100w. |
|
Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1251 Registered: Apr-05 | Sig you may not find independent test for the actual model that you own. However you can take the word of Berny and a few of the other people who have been around this hobby for a long time that the marketing, advertising and indeed the products of a lot of companies (especially the conglamorates) reflect their corporate strategy. In this particular case you can rest assured that the strategic focus of Sony is firmly on the side of mass manufacturing, shipping, placement and its ability to promote and enhance their other vertical focuses such as their media products (movies and music). Delivering high sound quality goes way down the line as compared to, say, Outlaw which does nothing but. It sounds like you are happy with what the product you own and that's great. I would ask that you keep an open mind with respect to what else is presented here. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 16 Registered: Jul-06 | I have no problem with what is presented, I'm just pointing that the rating for the sony amp, at least in stereo leaves nothing to the outlaw and the fact that this time Sony has properly provided the information (at least for stereo) without any confusion and ambiguities. In multichannel performance everything might change since sony doesn't seem to provide a multichannel rating, perhaps for a good reason. But until someone tests the amp, we're unable to judge. In retrospect I do not own a Sony STR-DG500, my home receiver is a Pioneer VSX-1015TX which I am rather happy with, especially it's price performance ratio. My friend bought an STR-DG500 cause it was *very cheap* at the store, $200cdn new. And we have auditioned it against my VSX-1015TX in Stereo and honestly it would be hard to say who sounded better. The Sony seemed to have a bit more power down low (in stereo) mid and highs were about equal. The speakers used were Paradigm Monitor 5 V.4. Anyway, the Sony's performance was excellent as a cheap stereo amp, so it impressed me. So when someone says something, "well, a number of sony units in the past did bad therefor, obviously their current product line can not be good" is what upsets me. Then someone mentioned how they rated their stuff improperly. Again for stereo it seems corrected now. So it's not me who has to keep an open mind, it's pretty much the rest of the people in the thread. As far as Outlaw receiver goes, I'm fairly sure it's a good unit. The only thing is that it's not impressive is the price. Basically for $900USD a big maker such as denon or yamaha or pioneer can easily beat the outlaw on all accounts except "brand coolness". For example given $900 dollars this is the amp I would get http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3255.asp simply because when put to it I'm fairly certain it will outperform the outlaw in everyday. I guess the point is that there is nothing to be impressed by expensive high performance equipment. For a lot of money pretty much anyone can make a good product (then again for a lot of money anyone can make a shitty product also). The impressive part is when someone makes a cheap product perform well. That is engineering! |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 150 Registered: Apr-06 | Not exactly....power delivered into an 8 ohm load is one thing; unfortunately speakers are not a static 8 ohm load. This is where the quality of say, an Outlaw or Rotel or NAD comes into play. The quality of their power supplies (typically a hefty toroidal transformer) allows them to produce significantly more current (thats the key word) than what a Sony can produce. Moreover, their power supplies can manage the massive swings in a speaker load thanks to this and numerous, large, high quality capacitors. This is the reason why so many audiophiles are obsessed with the weight of their receivers/amplifiers; it simply takes a certain amount of material to make a high quality amplifier, and the ~18 pounds of the Sony ain't it. As a result, in every day usage, the Outlaw would be able to drive 4 and 6 ohm speakers whereas the Sony would simply not. The Outlaw would be able to drive an 8 ohm nominal speaker with garbage phase angles and wide impedence swings; the Sony wouldn't. This isn't to say that the Sony is an awful product that just shouldn't be produced, but you do get what you pay for. |
|
Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1252 Registered: Apr-05 | Sig don't confuse sound engineering with production engineering. It is true that Sony and Panasonic can get better deals on mass produced parts used within a lot of brands that roll off the same assembly line with different box and faceplates on them. However they also have tremendous overhead in marketing, advertisement, shipping, channel distribution and retail sales. So if Sony sells a receiver at $900, it is because it is "placing" a product at that range. Meaning that their market studies have shown that this products combined with proper marketing and placement can make a good profit at that price. Why because their brands are already established and most people don't have the patience or interest in doing more research or listening enough to see the difference that sound quality engineering will make in a competing, less known products that they can't find in Best Buy. The people that you see on this and other forums for the most part have that interest and patience and will point out the difference to you in these discussions. However I see from your posting that you are a pragmatic person that will only accept these points if they are proven to you. So I suggest that you do your own research and field testing. |
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 6 Registered: Aug-06 | Hi again: Just to give some required information: I'm only using the Sony in stereo mode with (the tiny speakers) Ensemble IV (from Cambridge Soundworks, rated 8 ohm). And the volume and sound quality I get is far away from the one I get with my 15 years old Pioneer SX-201 (a $100 receiver, not HK or any of these) |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 17 Registered: Jul-06 | In any case the STR-DG500 was able to drive Paradigm Monitor 5 V.4. So unless your speakers are super inefficient... 65db? The sony should be able to make them quite loud, painfully so actually. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4116 Registered: Dec-04 | Loud is cheap. Good, you have to work for. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 18 Registered: Jul-06 | He didn't ask for good, he asked for loud  . |
|
Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10851 Registered: Dec-03 | Good point. Loud is easy, good is hard to accomplish. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 975 Registered: Dec-03 | I pity the speakers. Garbage in, garbage out. |
|
Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 44 Registered: Mar-06 | For $180, the Sony is probably good and loud. The budget is an issue for just about all of us including wannabe audiophiles. Enjoy what you can afford on whatever level. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4117 Registered: Dec-04 | cheers. |
|
New member Username: MateamargoPost Number: 7 Registered: Aug-06 | Hi again I'm surprised about all the debate generated for my question. Anyway, I would like to restate that I get better sound quality and more volume from my old Pioneer SX-201. I don't know how good my speakers are (I really like them), but anyway I haven't change them! So, if they are "super inefficient", they should be "super inefficient" with both receivers. Maybe, and that is what I suggested in my first post, my Sony is defective. Do you know any objective test I can do? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Sigsegv0x0bPost Number: 19 Registered: Jul-06 | Try auto calibration. It should be able to detect many basic problems and set levels for the speakers. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4123 Registered: Dec-04 | Swap the Sony for another one. You will get the same. |
|
Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 45 Registered: Mar-06 | Nuck, you're right. Also, wannabe audiophiles includes just about everyone. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4157 Registered: Dec-04 | yup. Unless we don't wannabe philes. Jes listenin'. |
|
Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 46 Registered: Mar-06 | Amen. To their credit, there are a few exceptions. They already know who they are and the names aren't important. We are lucky enough to have them on this board. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics