Need help
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-06 | C720BEE vs T743 A/V I got NAD T743 A/V and have Totem Arro speakers connected in my leaving room + sonny cd (will get better player soon). I am really using it for music only but bought T743 in case I would add plasma(which may never happen because I have home theatre in basement). Would C720BEE sound much better with Arros? Did I make mistake? Should I try to change to C720BEE. Or maybe there is another solution - add NAD amplifier to the system? thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1236 Registered: Sep-04 | First of all, it's only a mistake if you're not happy with the sound. If you're happy with it, then there's no problem. You don't say what you don't like about it if there is a problem so it's difficult to judge whether a mistake has been made. I can't remember the power output of the 743. I do know the 720BEE will probably have difficulty running the Arros to high levels. It'll sound good at low to medium levels. If you want to be able to generate high levels you should be looking at something like a 352 or better. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | Power Output: Stereo Mode (8 ohms within rated distortion) 2 X 70W (18.45dBW) IHF dynamic power 8 ohms 2 X 105W (20.2dBW) 4 ohms 2 x 145W (21.6dBW) 2 ohms 2 x 165W (22.1dBW) Simultaneous power output surround mode 5 x 50W (16.98dBW) http://www.nadelectronics.com/av_receivers/T743_framset.htm C720BEE: Continuous average power output into 8 ohms 1 50W (17dBW) IHF dynamic power 8 ohms 100W (20dBW) 4 ohms 150W (21.7dBW) 2 ohms 180W (22.5dBW) (Max short term power/chan) 4 ohms 90W (19.5 dBW) Did not mentioned but I have also basic Sound Dynamisc sub connected. I am generally happy but...There is always but. I feel like I am not getting full potential out of Arros. I have levels set at 0, soft cliping off, playing R.Watters Amuse to deth at -10 almost blowed the speaker - the grill came off. At medium volume the is no problem but ocassionally if I crank it up, the system is choking. Thanks |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | Anything I can do to improve this set up? | |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1615 Registered: Dec-04 | Earplugs? | |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Nuck did you have to go to a school to became a clown or you were born like that? | |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1246 Registered: Sep-04 | Pablo I wonder if you're jut expecting too much from your Arros. If the speaker is being driven so hard that it blows the grille off there's a helluva lot of excursion happening. As for Nuck, I believe it took years of dedication to the cause of clowning to become such an adept!  Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1636 Registered: Dec-04 | Actually, it took years of distorted speaker and misapplications to come up with the one word answer that I supplied. Read between the lines, Pablo. I may show up for giggles now and then, but I have 25 years in this crap, and I am not a moron. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1637 Registered: Dec-04 | And you oughtta hear me sing! | |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | No disrespect, just looking for and advice not smart a#$ comments. I do not know too much about this stuff so I thought this is a good place to get some friendly help | |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1640 Registered: Dec-04 | And you will, Pablo, and the best advise will come along with a little comaradarie(sp). We have lots of that, too! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1641 Registered: Dec-04 | Pablo, you just happened to step into a goofy spot from me, it happens, but Frank answered your post and he is about the best guuy for Europe info that we have, and that's a lot. Over here, we have a bunch of Audioweenies that can help you with what you want. Stick around and feel it out. Not everybody is a smartarse, just me. And Jan, now and then. And Stu and Berny ...well hang around. |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 7 Registered: Mar-06 | OK lets start again. NAD and Arros are brand new. Totem Arro, loaded with 10lb of silica sand each, there are connected to the lower terminals Totem cable -Tress - Twisted pair (14-gauge multi stand) black and white Totem Beaks NAD T743 settings: Speakers Front - Large, level: 0,0,0, Tone: Bas +4, Treble +6 Sub - Sound Dynamics (3 years old)- basic 100W connected with good ($100) Monster cable Sonny 200 CD changer (6 years old) connected with good ($100) moster optical cable I know that for some people this is not a big deal but for me was lots of money - over 3000. I think maybe I just expected too much from this set up. Or maybe I just need some more tunning - levels, tones, changing connection in Arrors.... My question is if I go to C720BEE or T753 or maybe add an Amplifier? Would I see a big difrence? Or just playing with a tune up would be enough?. I know the Sonny is a weak link here and maybe a sub, but with new dvd formats getting soon on the market I was thinking to maybe wait to see what NAD will came up with. And no $$ now for nice over 1000 totem sub Any advice apprecited. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1249 Registered: Sep-04 | Pablo, Hmmm. Where to start? Let's try to get what you have working best first of all eh? I don't know who suggested you should fill the Arros with so much sand. Personally I find they are more musical with no sand in them at all - sorry! They are simply more lively and have better pace this way. they're a little less controlled in the bass perhaps but I still prefer the more exuberant feeling they give with no sand. The Tress is a good cable, slightly big in the bass. Personally I connect negative to LF and positive to HF. If you can remove the links between the high and low and replace with small snippets of Tress (or other reasonable gauge cable), you will gain more benefits. The standard links between the HF and LF detract from the sound. Totem Beaks - how many pairs? If one pair you should place one at the outer front corner of each Arro as faced from the front. If you have two pairs (as Totem recommend) then the extra pair should go on the inner rear corners, diagonally opposite the other beak. Do not stick them to the speaker. Just place them there. T743 settings. Why are you suing the tone controls? This should not be necessary. You are overdriving the amp by doing this and it explains the ability to knock the grill off. Incidentally, I never play Arros with the grilles on. Set the tone controls to zero and move the speakers to compensate. This will give a better result overall. If you don't have enough bass, move the speaker closer to the back wall (removing the sand will increase the bass anyway). If you don't have enough treble (unlikely), take off the Beaks! They attenuate the treble by 0.5db. I don't know the Sound Dynamics sub. Concentrate on CD music first. Get that right in just two-channel without sub. Try not to overdo bass. This is very difficult. You want bass but it should propel music along, it should not hold it back or dominate the proceedings in music replay, unless it's a very heavy bass track, but even then it should propel the music forward so you feel anticipation of the next phrase of music. Once you have found the happy medium, setup the sub so that you can't physically hear it, but when you switch it off, you miss it. This requires patience and subtlety so don't expect to do this in one quick sitting. If you get nowhere with all this then you may need to consider alternatives in terms of the amplification. The C720BEE is basically a C320BEE with a tuner in it. It is less powerful than your current amplifier. If you wish for more power (possible), you could add a C272 which would add huge power and control to the mix. However, the T753 is both more powerful and far more capable in the preamp stage giving a clearer result with far better steering, definition and detail. I hope this helps! Nuck, I love your sense of humour... Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Frank Thans for info http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/faq/faq.htm Arro 10-20 lbs in each cabinet that is what Totem sugests. Maybe it is too much, I will remove some or all and see the diffrence. The reason I put that much was for stability and bas. Since they have small woofer I was thinking that this is what they need. But you are right I am probably compromising livelinest. I will try your connection of Arros. I understand your way will connect equal power to woofer and tweeter. Do you mean negative to lower negative and positive to high positive? So just use same short piece of tress instead their link? will try this. I added grils because I have 4 year old son and things can happen One pair of beaks, placed as you described. Do you think would be worthed to buy another pair? "removing the sand will increase the bass anyway" I thought that adding sand would add bas?? When cames to T743 so if I understand should I have levels (left, right, sub) set at zero, also Tones(treble, bas) at zero? So if I could upgrade to T753 I would see difrence as well? Would that be better than C272? I have to see if this is still possible and $$ of cause. Thanks again |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1252 Registered: Sep-04 | Pablo The mass loading is a suggestion. You'll note that they say that the speakers will work very well without mass loading but if 'stability is an issue or there is an over-emphaisis in the bass' then you should experiment with mass loading. ie only mass load if it's likely they'll get knocked over or if there's too much bass in the room. Adding sand tightens bass but also reduces it. 4 year old son? Maybe you need some mass loading - concrete boots! Seriously though, this is a problem since the Arros are very light and can easily be toppled by a 4 year old. Luckily he's probably old enough to appreciate that if daddy says 'no' then he should stay away. Then again, I don't have children so I could be wrong about this. The small size of the Arro's drive units does mean there are limitations in terms of the ultimate depth of bass, but if you can play around with the mass loading you may find a nice surprise. Yes, negative to Low frequency negative and positive to high frequency positive. However, if you have too much treble you can try the other way around. You really need to wait for them to burn in before finally deciding which way is best. Start with one pair of beaks, play with the setup and wait for everything to settle down and run in before considering another set. As to the setup of the amp, the set the tone controls to zero. This gives the most neutral sound and keeps the amp within its operating envelope. Move the speakers around until you are happy with the sound. If you can't find a sound you are happy with, move them to the closest position first. Then use the tone controls. The whole idea of tone controls is to use them only if you absolutely must do so. Tone controls are really very crude devices (on almost any amp) so if you can get away without using them, this is usually best. If you upgrade to the T753 you will observe quiite a significant improvement in the overall performance of the system since all aspects of the 753's performance are improved over the 743. Would this be better than a C272? It's been a few months since I ran a NAD surround amp into Arros. I cannot say for certain, but I think the 753 would be the better solution overall. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1253 Registered: Sep-04 | But don't change anything until you've tried the free changes first! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1659 Registered: Dec-04 | Pablo, where were/are the Arrows placed ? How much wall space have you left, and do you have enough cable to move them around? The guys at Totom in Montreal suggested an exxagerated clearance to start, then move 3" at a time until the coherence was evident, then move the speakers 3" on each side, no toe. |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 9 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank thanks again for your help. I will try your sugestions. I guess there is lots of details to learn to acheive proper end result. Pablo |
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New member Username: PabloPost Number: 10 Registered: Mar-06 | Arros are about 10 cm or less from back wall. On both sides of the couch one in the corner about 3 meters apart. The cable is long -- about 8-10 meters for each speaker (this could be a little problem) but I had to run it under the floor trough some obstacles Oddly there are on opposite side of receiver. Sub is close to receiver. There is not much I can do about placing. I also have Sound Dynamics bookshelf speakers I was thinking to connect. I could connect them on the same side as receiver but this would probably add confusion to the system so I kept them out. I know this placing is strange but this is open concept living/dining open to kitchen main floor. So if I am in the kitchen sound is pointed on me, also in the living I have 2 big chairs in front of speakers as main listening position. I know this is not ideal set up but this is my leaving space for my family. I can not convert it to a studio. Pawel |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1254 Registered: Sep-04 | 3 metres apart? Hmmm. That's quite far. When listening to the system are you seated at least 3m from the speakers? You need that, otherwise they are too far apart and you get a hole in the middle so you end up listening to two separate speakers instead of one performance in the middle. With just 10cm from the rear wall, you should be getting quite a bit of bass. I would definitely take some sand out to let it fill in. 8 - 10m of cable should not matter provided it's reasonable quality or a fairly thick gauge. I hope the lengths for left and right are the same though! Otherwise you will get a slightly phasey result. I don't understand what you mean about placement on opposite sides of the receiver. I have observed that if the system is not between the speakers it might sound a bit better, but this is not usually very obvious at this level. regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PabloPost Number: 11 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank - you got me with speaker cable lenght! Such a stupid mistake! I think one is 2 meters shorter! Will have a hard time to verify - under a floor! If you picture a rectangle arros are on one wall and rest - receicer, sub, cd on island in the middle. That is why I run wires under the floor. See this simple picture The cable I used was Totem Tress like I said. $4.5 per foot!! |
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Bronze Member Username: PabloPost Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | forgot attachment:
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1260 Registered: Sep-04 | 2m difference? It's a bit much, I'm afraid. But you're not sure? That's a pain. Is there no way to find out the lengths? I'm thinking perhaps a strong piece of string, tie it to the speaker cable (tie it well), thread it through so you can thread it back easily? Compare the lengths of the two runs. If they are substantially different, you might get away with it by playing with the delay on the receiver. This is VERY crude so you could make things worse (just set it back to zero if so). It's the only thing I can think of in this situation. The best way to test it is with a simple vocal and work on the imaging. Totem Tress is not cheap but it is good cable. You certainly don't want to waste that. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PabloPost Number: 13 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank I will check my bills if not I will try to verify this for sure. Like I said it is hard but doable I will also make your other suggested changes - remove sand, use Tress cable instead of totem links on the back of Arros, and see wht I can get. I was skiing all weekend and did not have a time for these but there are valuable comments thanks. Pablo |
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Bronze Member Username: PabloPost Number: 14 Registered: Mar-06 | I took the sand out, shorten one cable - there is about 50 cm length difference now between left and right, replaced totem links with Tress snippets. The result - there is improvement in overall sound, dynamics, sharpness, liveliness of the system. I still think I do not have enough power. Don't mean to go crazy loud but to feel that this is strong system. The sale rep told me though that by changing to NAD T753 I will not notice worthy difference. T763 - yes but I can not afford it now. I paid $750 can + tax for T743 and I am looking at double this price for T763. So the unfulfilled dream is what's left. Thank you all for help Pablo |
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