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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-06 | Hi there, I have a problem and it's frustrating me very badly! I have a Pioneer VSX-515-K. I heard good things and read good things on reviews about this receiver and I ordered one roughly 2 months ago. I had two Technic 12" towers hooked up to it and it ran them flawlessly. I could crank them to the max and my amp never once had a problem. (The wattage says "150W Music" on the technic speakers) I ordered some Cerwin-Vega CLSC-12's in and they showed up yesterday. (They are 300W peak and 8 ohms). I hooked them both up and now when I turn my receiver up to about -25db....bang, the amp shows [B]overload[/B] and powers off. Also, the receiver turns back on no problem after this happends. The thing that really upsets me is that they aren't even close to distorting either and the fuses won't blow out on the speakers meaning they [U]aren't[/U] clipping. I've got new 12 gauge speaker wire, checked for shorts, hooked each up individually, the ohms match up, checked the speakers with an ohm meter (they show 8 with is correct), i've put new fuses in the speakers and i've even done little things like changing the crossover. It's currently set at 80 and the bass is at 4/6. The only thing that actually works a little bit is turning the bass down to basically the lowest setting on the receiver. It allows me to turn the volume to about -20db instead of -25db. I've tried everything I could think of! If you do the math my receiver is supposed to be powering the speakers 73%, which makes me unable to see why the receiver is overloading......I also tried hooking one speaker up to a buddies amp and cranked it with no problems and his is an old 100Watt X 5 Technic amp! I just can't figure it out and its making me sad lol. [U]ANY[/U] suggestions at all would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!!! |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 904 Registered: Oct-04 | You have a $200 receiver trying to power a 12" woofer, along with a 6.5" midrange. It's just running out of power. As soon as the 12" wants to start moving the receiver stops moving. Look for a power amp. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2088 Registered: Dec-04 | yup. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8197 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, but I have to disagree. The size of the woofer makes no difference to the amplifier, it sees a motor assembly and it doesn't really care if that motor is driving a 2" or a 18" cone. The amplifier is concerned with the "efficiency" of the system and the load of the speaker's impedance and crossover components. It can be affected by the back EMF of the motor but that should not be the problem here. If the speaker has high efficiency, which the CV's possess, the amplifier will be less stressed doing its work. The crossover of the CV's should be a relatively easy load to drive with no broad impedance swings or phase angles. Forget all the numbers you've mentioned, they mean nothing. The 73% is silly, you can't find the impedance of the speaker by just sticking a VOM on the terminals and speakers have no watts. You do have the bass boosted substantially. +6dB is the equivalent of asking the amplifier to produce large amounts of power in the bass compared to what you are asking it do do in the mids and high end. (And you don't mention if this is how you ran the Technics speakers.) That the amplifier works even a bit better with the bass level reduced would lead me to believe this is a part of your problem. However, you have left out some pertinent details in your post. You don't mention what receiver your friend has, what cables you both have or how you set the amplifier up with the Technics speakers. What you have mentioned is your desire to run the volume at "max". Amplifiers are not typically designed to be run at max and most particularly HT receivers are not designed for this type of use. I suspect you've done some damage to the Pioneer that makes it a bit weaker when asked to drive the CV's. If you still have the Technics, I would reattach them to the amplifier and check for levels with a relatively "known" speaker load. If that works, I would then haul one or both of the CV's down to the shop where you bought the Pioneer and ask them to hook the speaker to their version of your amplifier. Make the connection directly to the amplifier and not through their switch box. If their amplifier doesn't shut down as yours does, I would have your amplifier checked for proper operation. Hook the amplifier and speakers up at the shop and show the tech the problem. To do this you will have to take your speaker to the shop also. The tech might not need them while the work is done, but you want to check the two pieces together before you take the amplifier home. My suspicion is you've heated the components in the amplifier to excessive levels and they are no longer in spec. This weakens the amplifier and makes it less able to drive any sort of difficult load. I could be wrong, but that's where and how I would start solving the problem. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2089 Registered: Dec-04 | Same answer(although more detailed). The receiver is tired, and wants to go to Florida and wear pants way too high, and complain about the government full-time. Honestly, Jake, You might want to poke around the used market for another Pioneer receiver, if you like the pioneer sound(I do). With the CV's you do not need a lot of (rated) power, but if you are determined to make a LOT of noise, a power amp would be the way to go. |
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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 2 Registered: Apr-06 | Well thanks for the help everyone! I do not know my buddies model of receiver I just know its Technics and I cant check cuz he's away for the weekend. I have a question about a new receiver though. You mention to get a power amp, but what about just another HT? I was looking at the Sony line up and I was wondering about this? http://www.epinions.com/pr-Sony_STR-DA3000ES_7_1_THX_EX_DTS_ES_Channel_Home_Audi o_Receiver/display_~full_specs Would this baby drive my CV's for a good night of partying? lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8202 Registered: May-04 | I get the feeling JJ's just not getting the message. If you want to party loud and long, you need a subwoofer. One that plays loud and thumps even louder. Shut off the low frequencies to your receiver's amplifier section and let the subwoofer do the work. Partying with another HT will just result in another worn out receiver. |
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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 3 Registered: Apr-06 | haha. K, well thanks!! I actually have a CLSC-12 on the way. |
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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 4 Registered: Apr-06 | haha. K, well thanks!! I actually have a CLSC-12S on the way. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 905 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.cerwinvega.com/products/homeaudiovideo/Classic/clsc12.html Are you looking at the same speakers as me Jan? I wouldn't call 92dB @ 1M a highly sensitive speaker. It's obvious JJ likes the bass pounding and the neighbours knocking. Regardless of whether that receiver is at it's peak performance he's going to need more power to get the best performance out of those speakers. The speakers play down to 28 Hz, I'd presonally add a 300W x 2 power amp and not have a sub if I wanted to rock the house. Without spending at least $1000 on a sub I don't see them offering the same tight bass as a good loudspeaker tower does. |
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Silver Member Username: Bill984Post Number: 132 Registered: Oct-05 | funny. i came to to the forum to ask an ovrerload question and the first one was it. my pioneer vsx-405 was working fine the last time i used it about a week ago and today as soon as i put a little volume on it it says "overload" . it has (and no laughing please, i bought them way before i found this forum) 2 bose wall mount, small speakers on them and everything has been fine for 6 years, now suddenly i get the overload. is the reciever just shot? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8210 Registered: May-04 | Kano - You seem to be confusing Cerwin Vega bass with the "tight" bass a "good" tower offers. Without trying to disparage any product unduly, the bass form a CV speaker is not "tight" and does not go down to 28Hz in any useable sense. It is "bass pounding" and "neighbor knocking". Just what a party speaker is expected to be. And CV subs carry on that tradition. Again I think you are confusing which sub you might perfer with the sound JJ considers "good". Ninety two dB is not extremely high sensitivity, I grant you, but by comparison with the industry average of about 88dB, it is a good deal more efficient than most and will make the 110 watts from the Pioneer sound as if it were about 300 watts by comparison. Buying more power alone is very inefficient at this point. The gain will be in the cleanliness of the dynamic peaks. Something JJ will not notice at party levels. Considering JJ just spent a bunch on his speakers and amplifier, despite his apparent desire to already move forward with changing equipment, I felt there was little need suggesting replacement equipment changes of significant dollar value. If the Pioneer is operating correctly and can be relieved of the chore of producing deep bass response, it should provide enough juice for JJ's party needs. A subwoofer would be able to handle the thump which JJ truly wants. This is what most often defines "party" sound to most people. Quality aside I am not disputing the value of a separate power amplifier, but find no vlaue in its purchase in this instance at this time. If I have not made the point adequately to this time, there is little if any significant value in trying to power your way up to party sound. It is relatively expensive, very ineffective by comparison to other methods and will still break at party levels if asked to drive most consumer speakers. I am expecting another future post from JJ saying he is still not satisfied with the volume levels he can achieve with the Pioneer and it has broken once again from being cranked to the max. At that point a better amplifier is in order and the suggestion that JJ attain his volume needs by purchasing the most effective route to SPL's. Going to a more efficient speaker still is probably in JJ's future. A jump to a speaker which produces another five to ten dB of volume is what I would then suggest. (Possibly a power PA speaker if his tastes haven't changed by that time.) That 100db pair of speakers and a sturdy 100 watt amplifier will probably do most of what JJ sounds as if he desires. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8211 Registered: May-04 | Bill - Your receiver is shot if you don't want to put money into repairs. A shop will give an estimate for repair costs and you can weight the decison against a new amplifier. I'm fairly certain, as a guess of course, your amplifier can be repaired, but at what cost and what use? If you are ready to move on with a better amplifier, that is the course I would persue. |
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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 5 Registered: Apr-06 | I like the boom of a subwoofer, but I also like the sound of the punch that the towers are supposed to put out. I love cerwin-vega speakers and I spent a long time finding the right deal so I wont be buying new towers for a long, long time. I don't necessarily care about cranking them all night at parties, but I just want to be able to crank them up for a short period of time. (for a good song or 2), and then turn it back to listening level of about 70% of the "cranked" level and then vice versa. If I could do that without overload problems I would be satisfied. I do not want to buy a power amp because I would only use it at parties and I don't have many parties. I want to get a HT Receiver that will make them punch the bass and scream the highs but I DO NOT expect it to last at max level for hours. My father has an old Pro Logic Technics amplifier (100 X 5) and it powered both of mine at max quite well. The bass was thumpin and the highs were awesome. I was happy with the sound since I do not get that kind of "punch" bass from my receiver at all. Being that his amp works good, it makes me wonder why? I was thinking about getting a Sony STR-5000ES for my HT setup, but all I want to know, is that if it will power my towers like my fathers (it should be better being its 170W RMS/ch stereo and its digital). I know it's just another HT amp and it will burn out if i abuse it and whatever but everyone I know has a HT receiver and they crank up their speakers all night long without problems. That is why I cannot see why I need a power amp. My friend has some V-12F towers and he had them cranked all night, he had a plain HT receiver like mine except it was yamaha and it was 120W X 7. His amp got extremely hot, but it never once overloaded and it always made the speakers produce awesome lows and highs. Another guy I know has the same speakers as me except he has a $600 sony HT receiver. I do not know the model of his receiver but I know he can leave it on for hours turned about 3/4 of the way. On the occasional song he liked a lot, he would crank it to the max and wow did I love it. After the song, he turned it back down to about 3/4 which I believe was around -20db. If that Sony STR-5000ES is not a good choice, I would like to see what HT receiver would be a great choice. (As long as its under $1000!). Thanks again! |
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Silver Member Username: Bill984Post Number: 133 Registered: Oct-05 | yeah, i only use it in the office, maybe i can talk the wife into the VSX-72TXV i've been wanting. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8224 Registered: May-04 | JJ - If your friends' amplifirs drive the same speakers to your satisfaction, I would begin looking at similar receivers to theirs. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2113 Registered: Dec-04 | Jake, you can get a H/K receiver for a good price from Audiogon, or another reseller. If you want volume available and troublefree performance without the thing cooking it's own guts, I suggest you start with H/K. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 906 Registered: Oct-04 | I just looked at the receiver, it's not possible to hook it up to any power amps as it only has a subwoofer pre-out. This really limits your options. |
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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 6 Registered: Apr-06 | Hey Nuck I have a question. You told me to get a Harmon Kardon receiver. I was looking at an AVR-635 and I was wondering if this baby would power my CW's better than most others? |
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New member Username: Jake9611Post Number: 7 Registered: Apr-06 | Also, What do you think of the Yamaha RX-V2500 for power and clarity? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 907 Registered: Oct-04 | Both would be adequate, in my opinion the HK would be the better pick for its build quality and power supply. Since most receivers fudge their rated power to market their products it is not a valuable resource to look at when shopping around. For instance your receiver is rated at 115W @ 1% THD using a 1KHz test tone. Most receivers are rated at 0.05-0.07% THD using a 20Hz-20,000Hz test tone. The best may to see if the receiver is made well is to look at the weight. Pioneer VSX-515K - 21.1 lbs Yamaha RXV-2600 - 38.4 lbs Harman Kardon AVR-635 - 41 lbs |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8229 Registered: May-04 | I would agree that weight is virtually always the key to build quality and especially so in receivers. Certainly no other on paper specs are worth diddly. That doesn't mean you will like the sound, but weight almost always indicates the amplifier will typically hold together well and is built to sound as much like music as possible. That doesn't mean you will like the sound. But I have no problems what so ever with the HK line and have sold and owned them going back thirty yeras. I have a thirty year old HK receiver and power amp and a ten year old HK HT receiver. They are one of the best receiver lines available in my opinion. That doesn't mean you will like the sound. |