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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3523 Registered: Mar-05 | whelp, my father's being discharged from the hospital tomorrow so I will be easing back slowly into this forum, but wanted to post this review before sending the Emmas off on Wednesday to the next person. (Tim, please email me the mailing address of the next person on the list.) I am very pressed for time these days, so I am afraid I could only do a sort of bullet-point review this time around: =========== FIRST IMPRESSIONS: - Well packed in *2* separate boxes! - Gorgeous finish, very solid feel, cool binding posts - Yowsers, these speakers do sound BIG! PROS: - huge soundstage - lush enveloping highs - respectable detail separation and imaging - warm, pleasant midrange - oodles of bass, my walls were often buzzing! - handles high volumes gracefully for the most part CONS: - placement...needs at least 3 ft. from wall to avoid boominess, 4 ft. probably would be ideal - sometimes the highs seem a little overextended and a tad sloppy, but mainly at +90db volume - tight bass at moderate volumes but became a bit boomy/overbearing above 80-85db - low sensitivity so requires a beefy amp, my Marantz 5400 struggled compared to the digital Panny and NAD separates WISHES: - that Emma had some sort of adjustable foam port-plug system like the Hsu VTF subs have, or maybe a port diffuser like some Polks have - slightly more precise tweeter --- the planar tweeter has excellent wide dispersion but was a bit inexact at times - higher sensitivity/efficiency QUICKIE COMPARISONS: - Lings were warmer but suffered from congestion at high volumes and with complex material and muddier bass. Emma does not have the same stunning warmth, but she also does not have the congestion issue at all so she does well with a wide range of music and SPL habits. - Ascend 340s were slightly more forward and neutral, did not have quite as wide a soundstage, but did seem to have more controlled treble and better imaging. Overall detail and transparency were pretty close, though. If I were choosing a pair of speakers for a 2-channel system with NO subwoofer, I honestly don't know which one I'd pick...quite possibly Emma by a few hairs! (Note: I have not heard the new Ascend 340SEs yet, which are supposed to have more bass and warmth.) METAPHOR (to continue what Jan started, lol): Emma's got long silky hair down to her waist and EE-cup cachongas which definitely can walk across the room and knock you off your feet. However when you *really* get hot and heavy with her these two attributes can get in the way and be a bit of a nuisance...not quite enough to kick her out of bed of course, and you certainly would not feel bashful about being seen in public with her! CONCLUSION: - strong mass appeal and multipurpose speaker, reasonably priced esp. considering minimal need of a subwoofer --- Emma would do equally well with HT or music, and at a small independent audio shop or at a (no offense) BestBuy/Circuit City. - all in all, congrats to Tim --- this might well be his breakthrough speaker! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7194 Registered: May-04 | " ... EE-cup cachongas which definitely can walk across the room ... " I would hasten to correct the idea that has anything to do with my "metaphor". Walk across the room? Titt!es with little feet? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 787 Registered: May-05 | Ed, We missed you. Great, quick take. Makes me hope I get to spend some time with Emmas soon. NO, not the EE cup part or the walking across the room part, the PROS part, ie.: - huge soundstage - lush enveloping highs - respectable detail separation and imaging - warm, pleasant midrange - oodles of bass, my walls were often buzzing! - handles high volumes gracefully for the most part Now, I took those as a good thing and not a suggestion that Emmas were a mere "working girl" type speaker. LOL Tim, I'm waiting. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3525 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, I meant "your" metaphor in that you were personifying these speakers in the form of a woman. As for breasts having feet, oh yeah some most certainly do and then some. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3526 Registered: Mar-05 | thanks David, it's been a hellacious couple of weeks. I think you'll enjoy Emma at least as much as I did! Tim, am still waiting for the mailing list with the next recipient... |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 715 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks for your review and kind comments Eddie. I've sent you an e-mail. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1356 Registered: Jun-05 | Glad to hear that Eddie,I just got back on line today,I read your posts about 3weeks ago,they screwed my user name up again and I felt pretty bad because I couldnt get on line and tell bad I felt for you and how sorry I was.But he is getting out so it seems like things are looking up,so you hang in there. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3527 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, I did get a chance to listen to your demo CD today...WHOA!!! Excellent choice of tracks across a nice range of genres. The test tones at the beginning were especially helpful, as was track #2...love the bass. Sure wish I had remembered to listen to it a bit earlier...don't know if you selectively EQed any of them to the best advantage of Emma (a la Bose's demo CDs, hee hee), but they really did make her shine, especially on the Elvis tracks. Any chance of you emailing me a songlist? I'll also use this CD on my Ascends and especially on my new Mirage S12 subwoofer (review to come), and for any future speaker shopping...thanks a bunch! |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1358 Registered: Jun-05 | Wow first time back in nearly a month and im screwing up already,I must be rusty,nice review Eddie,I know you had big distractions,but at least you some of their magic.Jan,aamazing review!very different and very soulful and articulant.Sam Tellig sure isnt that creative,well i will see if can follow these great reviews,with a bang without being biased of course. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3528 Registered: Mar-05 | thanks TW, I appreciate that. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1359 Registered: Jun-05 | You bet. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7203 Registered: May-04 | If you are using Media Player shouldn't it give you the CD and track information? If not, I'll find the copy I made for myself and post the information. I've already deleted the tracks from my computer. None of the tracks were EQ'd in any way. That's the sound the recorder in my computer copies from the disc. I did clean the discs before I made copies and that always helps. The originals are slightly cleaner but it's hard to tell the difference unless I'm doing a direct A-B comparison. Glad you liked the selection. Make a copy if you like and do send the original down the road with the speakers. Everyone who hears Emma can then hear some of the same music and have a better idea what the previous listeners have heard. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 716 Registered: Dec-03 | Great idea Jan! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3529 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, ah I hadn't thought of putting it in my computer, I'll do that and burn a copy. I think I'll use it as my general audio-demoing CD whenever I go to stores...the salespeople will be duly intimidated I'm sure! : ) Thanks again! and I'll be sure to send it along with the speakers to Tawaun, he's next on the list. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 841 Registered: May-05 | Jan or Ed - Could you post the track list of that cd? It would be interesting to know what you listened to. |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 72 Registered: Aug-05 | Ditto |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3539 Registered: Mar-05 | whelp, my Windows Media Player as well as WinAmp could not provide any artist/title info at all so Jan please post the list. Dammit, the more I listen to those darn Elvis tracks on Emma the more tempted I am to sell off my Ascends and possibly return the Mirage sub and buy a pair of Emmas for myself...ARGHHHHH!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7215 Registered: May-04 | I'll have to pull together the list. I'll post it as soon as possible. I would say I'd make copies available but I have a feeling there's a music company's lawyer that would have me in court in short time. Dak, can I make copies for other people to "borrow" just to see if they like the selections.? Naturally I cannot control what happens to these copies once in the hands of the various forum members. I am an Elvis fan but, none the less, I consider these tracks to be great demo material. The particular tracks I placed on the CD were made at the time when studios were usually using no more than two or three microphones and recording the entire group live as they performed the song. There were no overdubs and edits were minimal to nonexistent. There was very little signal processing other than the echo put on the performer's voice. When I was selling I kept a few discs of Elvis, Sinatra, Patsy Cline and Louie Armstrong to use as demos. I think everyone probably has an idea how at least one of these performers should sound. Whether their impression agreed with mine or not was not important to me. Only that the client found a voice they felt was correct. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1367 Registered: Jun-05 | Man I wish I could gey my friend Steve in Cali,to send me some of those never released tracks from the Beatles,man that stuff was recorded great,I mean this guy has a Beatles collection with songs that knowone in the states have heard and I've had the pleasure of listening to about 20 tracks thru some old Daleqeust( I know I spelled that wrong)but man did it sound great.I do know why the Beatles are so special,likewise for Elvis my aunt is a huge fan of his and I've heard a lot of his songs,boy Legends with no hype just pure great music, pure facts,and great for fidelity. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3542 Registered: Mar-05 | well Jan, having never heard Elvis in person I can't even begin to guess if the Emmas present his voice "correctly"---all I can say is that the depth and warmth and especially the imaging is downright scary. No way around it---with this material, my beloved Ascends simply are not in the same league. to paraphrase Mr. Cash: Damn my ears!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7221 Registered: May-04 | The point is not whether you know how Elvis is supposed to sound. That would be very hard since most of his appearances would have been amplified and what you would hear would be influenced by the sound reinforcement system. What becomes important is that almost everyone has an idea in their head what Elvis sounds like. If you are using a good recording of Elvis to compare speakers, you are just listening for what seems to match that idea in your head. I used it to focus a client's decisions on a particular aspect of the speaker's performance; in this case the midrange/vocal quality. It kept them from being distracted by additional bass response or a brighter speaker and put their focus on what I consider the most important part of the speaker's sound quality. Generally if the speaker gets the midrange right, then what follows will be acceptable and the speaker will perform well with a wide variety of music. That's a somewhat British and "East Coast" American speaker concept but it gave those clients who never listened to live music a place to begin when choosing a speaker "that sounds good". Whether you've ever been to a concert becomes somewhat immaterial as Elvis and Sinatra were (and to the current generation the "were" part is becoming increasingly important) ubiquitous voices and you knew who was performing the instant you heard the voice whether you heard it on a car radio or a pair of studio monitors. For the folks in my generation it would be difficult to find someone who had not seen and heard Elvis or Frank Sinatra on TV or the movies. It worked far better for me than asking them to decide which speaker made the piano sound more realistic as their first choice. I did work with one salesperson who used the piano as his starting point. Again he was looking for something that everyone had an idea how it sounds. My problem with that is most recorded and reproduced pianos do not sound like real pianos. But Les used the technique to convince people that the Klipsch Cornwall was a good speaker because he told them it sounded like a piano to him. Les often used the idea that if it was good enough for him, why should a customer want more than that. Les did not sell the high end products in the shop. He sold Cornwalls and a Yamaha receiver over and over again. For some of my clients that was as far as the usefullness extended; just figure out the midrange. If someone was a bit more experienced listener, then the voice could be used to help with inflection and intent. How one speaker portrayed the way Elvis formed words or worked with the backing group could be quite different than how another speaker performed the same task. I tried to get people beyond just the frequency balance or "soundstaging" of the system and concentrating on how the system reproduced the performance. Elvis always had a tight group behind him, particularly when there were just a few like the Jordanaires, and the interplay of the musicians between themselves and with Elvis was what I was trying to get people to concentrate on. This was more difficult for most people to grasp and generally we moved on to which speaker had the most bass. When people got it, they got it. When they didn't, it was just a tool to use to get started. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7222 Registered: May-04 | Using the test tones on the CD how deep did Emma go in your room? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3544 Registered: Mar-05 | > What becomes important is that almost everyone has an idea in their head what Elvis sounds like. If you are using a good recording of Elvis to compare speakers, you are just listening for what seems to match that idea in your head. That makes sense, but what if we all have different ideas of "what Elvis sounds like" after a lifetime of hearing his voice over a wide variety of sound equipment, from TV speakers to FM radio to component speakers? I guess I still find it very hard to pin down what makes one speaker/system sound "pleasing" from one person to the next. Maybe it's just not possible to predict w/o knowing each person's individual listening history? =========== Emma started to roll off around 48-50Hz at 90db There was still some output all the way down to 20Hz though, which astonished me. Surprisingly the Ascends were not as far behind as I thought: roll off started at 55-58Hz at 90db but output petered out by 28-30Hz. Overall though I found the Emmas to have a much richer and warmer quality with the likes of Elvis, Cash, and Diana Krall. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 790 Registered: May-05 | Jan, I'm not a patent, trademark, copyright lawyer so the advice is worth what you're paying for it. Typically, you are entitled to make a back-up of any copyrighted material for your own use. Furthermore, you are entitled to loan your backup copy or the original to your friends or share music, that was allowed long before Napster came along and it "probably" falls into the fair use standard. Now, you cannot control what you friend does with the disk. Oh, that we had such powers, imagine all the good we could do. HEY, just kidding. Did that answer your question? BTW, I'd love to borrow either your original or a backup copy to listen to and I promise, Scout's honor, cross my heart hope to die, double dare promise, etc. etc. etc. to return it after I have listened and evaluated it for myself. Edster, OK, now I've got to get Tim to get me the Emmas, you're scaring me. No Ascend recommendations in sight. LOL BTW, PM me, what the heck has been going on in your life? T-Man's comments have me a little worried about ya. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 724 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey Dave, I've got orders lined up since I returned from vacation. I'll see what I can do once I get caught up again. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7228 Registered: May-04 | OK, with that bit of free advice, I will make copies of the Emma Demo CD available as "loaned copies". What you do with the CD once it's in your possession is not something I can control. I can't even control whether the post office will get the disc back and forth. I'm still working on the play list; I have company this week and that is taking up some time, so this might not get posted until next week. Several of the discs that were used are no longer in print so this will let you hear some music you might not find elsewhere. How about we do it this way; if you are interested in a copy of the CD, send me a self adressed padded mailing envelope and I'll return the envelope with a CD in a soft poly file holder. The address is; Jan Vigne 126 North Montclair Ave. Dallas, TX 75208 If you have some music you think is interesting, make me a copy and I'll give a listen and return the disc with the loaned demo CD. |
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New member Username: Group3e11Lowell, MA 01852 Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-05 | I am VERY interested on Emma's to use with a vintage NAD 7155,(55WPC) receiver. The room they are to be used in is app. 11'X9'6" and I sit app. 6' from the speakers. Any comments or suggestions or comments would be appreciated. Steve bichonboys@comcast.net |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1063 Registered: Dec-04 | Old vinyl headed your way Jan... |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 732 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi Steve. In a room that size 55w is plenty to shake it with Emma. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7264 Registered: May-04 | Stephen - Does your email address refer to puppies or your behaviour? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1066 Registered: Dec-04 | Friese! I said Friese sucker! Jan, I sent a SASE to you, but not sure about the return postage. Be sure to read the liner notes of the disc when it arrives, will cover anybody else who is postage shy. Very nice offer, and I, for one, am taking it up. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7267 Registered: May-04 | I'll cover the return postage. I just didn't want to be buying padded envelopes and doing the postage. I figured if you had to make a little bit of an investment in the proposition, you would only take me up on the offer if you were serious. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1067 Registered: Dec-04 | Very serious and much appreciated, Jan. A small investment in time and effort keep away the riff-raff. Oh , wait, I'm still hear! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7271 Registered: May-04 | I thought you said you were having problems with hearing. And, yet, here you are! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1076 Registered: Dec-04 | And fulfilling my commitment to be kind, considerate and a bit less sarcastic than last year. Just like Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1077 Registered: Dec-04 | Enjoy the cd, Jan. |
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Jeffrey-WNY Unregistered guest | Hi Jan, I don't know much (or anything...) about electronics, but I thought I should give my two cents about the copyright question you raised. Although the music industry is increasingly concerned about CD swapping among friends, I don't think, as a practical matter, that any record company would be likely to bother you because they don't know exactly what you copied, unless they ordered a physical copy of the CD from you. As a legal matter, however, if you did get sued, you'd likely be held liable for copyright infringement. Copyright is a bundle of rights -- reproduction, adaptation, performance, distribution, display. First, you admit reproducing the tracks by copying them to a CD. Your defense would be the "fair use" doctrine; however, you didn't copy them for personal use, but to give them away, so you couldn't avail yourself of the famous "Betamax" case, which allowed TV "time-shifting" on a VCR. Second, you admit distributing the CDs in the mail. Your defense would be the "first sale" doctrine, which prevents copyright owners from stopping the sale of used books and records or the operation of lending libraries. But you're distributing more copies than you originally had, so this defense would fail. A final problem is that you've created something new, a "compilation," without getting a license from the contributors, so the authors and performers on the CD could sue you individually. The good news -- I think the worst that would happen is that you'd get a "cease and desist" letter from a record company, and this would only happen after you'd mailed one of your CDs to a record company legal department. Jeffrey |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7276 Registered: May-04 | So you're telling me to not respond to any self addressed envelopes with the return address going to Sony Records? |
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Jeffrey-WNY Unregistered guest | I would advise against it (!). Actually, Sony is the record company that's been most aggressive against CD swapping, but it uses copy protection software rather than litigation, and it has had to back off, at least temporarily. Here's an excerpt from a NY Times article dated Nov. 14, 2005: After years of battling users of free peer-to-peer file-sharing networks (and the software companies that support them), the recording industry now identifies "casual piracy" -- the simple copying and sharing of CD's with friends -- as the biggest threat to its bottom line. And in one company's haste to stop consumers from ripping and burning CD's, a hornet's nest has been stirred. By the end of last week, that company, Sony BMG, which had embedded aggressive copy-protection software on the Van Zant CD and at least 19 others, suspended the use of that software after security companies classified it as malicious. At least two Internet-borne worms were discovered attempting to take advantage of the program, which the CD's transferred to computers that played them. And the company was facing lawsuits accusing it of fraud and computer tampering in its efforts at digital rights management, or D.R.M. "Look, what we do is write music; we make music," said Donnie Van Zant, who like most artists had no had no idea what sort of security features, if any, his label would place on the album. "I really don't even know what D.R.M. means, to be honest with you." The entertainment industry has complained that in the digital world, wanton piracy can bleed revenues. Along with lawsuits and legislative lobbying, infusing digital media with tricked-out code to limit how, when and by whom it is used is one way copyright holders have sought to keep control of their products. It is not foolproof (for every lock, a pick), and tight controls are not what customers want. But it is something they might tolerate -- so long as it does not go too far. "I think they've set the whole D.R.M. thing back at least a year or two," Todd Chanko, a television and entertainment industry analyst with Jupiter Research in New York, said of the Sony BMG situation. One angry "customer reviewer" of Van Zant's album put it another way on Amazon.com: "Boycott Sony! It looks like it's now safer to download pirated copies than to buy CD's!" |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7277 Registered: May-04 | Jeff - Thanks, I remember the article and the attempts by Sony to over protect their merchandise by destroying any computer that played a BMG disc. I will be cautious with the demo disc mail outs, though I figure the NSA got me in their sights long ago. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7288 Registered: May-04 | The Emma Demo selection sheet has been placed at the end of this thread. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/186180.html |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3584 Registered: Mar-05 | thanks, Jan! |
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Bronze Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 13 Registered: Dec-05 | Thanks, Jan! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 792 Registered: May-05 | See Jan, Now you know why lawyers always use snappy legal defense language when giving opinions outside their area of expertise. I have no idea what Jeffrey is talking about after he got past "fair use" and "first sale" although I don't even claim to have minimal expertise on any of this fun IP type stuff. Give me a good ole dogfight with lawsuits, claims and counterclaims and I'm a much happier camper. However, Jeffrey if I ever get into IP litigation, you'll be on my short list to call. LOL, Dave |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1091 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks Jan, watch the mail, please. |
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Jeffrey-WNY Unregistered guest | Hi Dave, No thanks; I'm a teacher and Jan's query sounded like an exam question to me! You know, the more issues you can spot, the better your grade .... Best, Jeffrey P.S. BTW, I don't entirely disagree with you. Jan could lend his lawfully purchased copy to a friend and probably wouldn't be liable if the friend made an infringing copy, although the record company could plausibly allege contributory infringement if it could prove that Jan intended to facilitate the infringing conduct. (Of course, I don't know how the concept of "lawfully purchased copy" would apply to a homemade compilation. You'd also want to determine whether any or all of the material on the CD is in the public domain, which is possible if some of the tracks predate 1978.) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7312 Registered: May-04 | " ... the record company could plausibly allege contributory infringement if it could prove that Jan intended to facilitate the infringing conduct." I KNOW NOTHINGK! There, that should cover my butt. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 795 Registered: May-05 | I've been waiting for you to cover that thing! Now, how about that other thing? Well written, Jeffrey, you might as well register and join the insanity. At least then, you've got a defense, if ever you need one. Bester, Dave |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1096 Registered: Dec-04 | Yes, Jeffrey, do join. Goodness knows, a legaal mind would help the mayhem here once in a while. Other profesionals hang out here, for some unknown reason, I , myself am also a para-gynocoligst. |
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New member Username: JeffreywnyEast Amherst, New York USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-06 | Thanks, guys; I'm in. I can't say that I have the dedication to this hobby of the guy back in October who opened up his speakers and reported what they smelled like inside .... (In case you missed that one, see below.) But I'm getting there. *********** NOTE:I don't know why but the insides of the 404's I got smell awful so be warned. Kindalike horse.Don't worry you can't smell it when you put them back together or when they are in use. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2689 Registered: Feb-05 | Welcome Jeffrey! |
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Anonymous | Jan - could you just make an image of the disc and upload it to a bittorrent site. Let us know which site. Thanks in advance. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7367 Registered: May-04 | I tried that and it got me into things I didn't want to be a part of. It was not follow the yellow brick road. If someone has a simple solution you can point me to, I'll give it another try. I have Windows XP and so their Media player and I do most of my recording on the basic Neo Start Smart program. |