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Bronze Member Username: BobsacamenoPost Number: 11 Registered: Apr-05 | I've been in the process of slowly but surely putting the pieces together on my audio system. Yet after this Christmas party I just came back from, I am stuck: A floorstanding 3-way or bookshelf with a sub? I think some sage 3rd party advice is needed here... I couldn't get a whole lot of details around this guy's setup but I was sure struck by the fullness of the sound. From what I can just visually see, probably 15" woofer, 4" mids and 3" tweeters. Some of the components were Pioneer Elite, but not all. The owner supposedly got most of it from Magnolia Audio, a local chain here in southern Cal. The house was packed but he had the system in a enclosed room... Here's my situation: + Movies/Music: 60/40 although we are not into movies with EFX that makes the walls rumble + Music: Classical mostly, some jazz, folk + Room size: 13' long by 9' wide. Ceilings are 8' high; Hardwood floor + I _was_ looking at a HK AVR with bookshelf/sub combo. I was planning on $1.5-2k for the entire set-up. The fact that what I heard last night enthralled me so much, I'm now leaning on getting some solid floorstanders and maybe make the sub, optional, perhaps for adding later. I am not into the "bright" sound at all. The fact that we are really not "into" movies makes this one of those "why didn't I think of this before"... If I have to go over $2k, I'd be open to it if it gets me the sound I want. Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3459 Registered: Mar-05 | floorstanders in a 13x9 room seems a bit excessive to me, that's really not a difficult amount of space to power at all. I'd suggest: HK435, $510 shipped from electronicsexpo.com 4 CBM-170s, CMT-340c center, and Hsu STF-3 sub $1541 shipped from ascendacoustics.com (you could go with the smaller STF-2 if you want to save $200, it might be enough in such a small room) Ascend also carries HK so if you email or call them they might be able to roll it into the package at a discount. Their speakers are famously neutral (flat frequency response) which excell at classical and jazz. See the "Measurements" link on their site for FR graphs, one of very very few speaker makers that post this info. The "Reviews" menu would also be good reading. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 836 Registered: Dec-04 | Merry Christmas, Ed. I might differ hust a bit from your call, Ed. For that room, I myself, would start with one pair of 170's, possibly 340's depending on bass req'd. The stf2 sould do quite nicely. As I lean more and more towards stereo for the music, I also find 2.1 very adequate for movies, especially for 'non-stuff blowing up' films. John, your budget is fair, and you are in the hunt, If I am you, a nice stereo is a good place to start. Should you wish balanced bass, and without the sub, you might want to look into Alegria(Tim) and the Emma's, the review is coming up soon from Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3460 Registered: Mar-05 | True, a 2.1 or 3.1 setup would work just fine in that room. Happy Xmas to you too, Nuck. Doesn't feel much like Xmas time down here, 74 degrees expected today. John---btw, Ascend is coming out with their new SE series in mid-January if you can wait a few weeks. They will be just a tiny bit more than their current models ($20-40 extra a pair) but with better drivers and an extra 10Hz of bass extension so with a pair of 340SEs (or an L/C/R combo) you might not need a sub after all if you are not looking for wall shaking bass during movies. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 266 Registered: Jul-05 | Hello John- Merry XMAS and Happy New Year. here is my opinion; 1. Floorstanders vs sub/bookshelfs is unaffected by the dimensions of your room. Somebody is gonna handle the lower frequencies. I have my reference audio system in a study with hardwood floors too. It opens on two sides via French doors however. The only question is the actual footprint of the floorstanders. That's for you to decide; audio-wise- floorstanders do provide a potentially better more cohesive musical experience. 2. That being said- I'd actually go with the "bookShelf"-sub combo. Or at least a definitie subwoofer. Movies are simply made with that LFE channel and you need a sub to hear it. SO I'd recommend a sub. 3. The sub of choice is the UFW-10 by av123.com in my opinion. It is 200 more than the HSU STF 2. But it looks much better, has 300 more watts in its amp ( this alone does not equate to a better sub BTW) and is sealed. Its rated extension is to 25 HZ. This sealed sub gives a more accurate bass reproduction for jazz music. I have had a personal demo from Dr. HSU himself ( a scholar and a gentleman BTW) and the HSU STF 2 is a fine choice. But the UFW-10 is better. The decay times of the bass notes are more accurate. The driver response seems quicker too. 3. Receiver- How bout the HK AVR 240? 4. Speakers- now heres where it gets interesting. Those recs for the Ascends up there are just fine. I own a pair of the 170s and its a pleasure to listen to- the speaker does nothing wrong- which says a lot these days. I'd personally wait for the 170SEs to come out- either for the discount on used 170s which will pop up or the new twetters made by SEAS- a well respected driver maker. But frankly, you kinda strike me as someone with an appreciation for music in an audiophile kinda way. And like I said, the AScends are just fine, especially with a UFW-10 as the sub mate-- you will be happy. But- you can get used speakers of perfect sonic quality at audiogon.com that step into another level of sound expereince. For instance, I saw 2 pairs of recently listed Vandersteen 2CEs for 850 or under. KNow I am not sure what type of amp the Vandersteen would need. ANd in fact you may not like the VAndersteen sound. But heck, at 600 for the sub, 850 for the speaker pair and 350 for the HK receiver, you are there! 4. My point is not to sell you on Vandersteens( you have to listen to them first anyway)- its to let you know that you have the resources to do something nice in a 2.1 set up perhaps beyond the perfectly adequate AScend/HSU/HK line up. So....good luck!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: BobsacamenoPost Number: 12 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks for all of your opinions, not to mention for taking the time to type all of it up. + With regards to the footprint and external aesthetics of the speaker, I would love to take them out of the equation completely (I'd rather pay a premium for the sound quality of the speaker, not necessarily how they look in my room). I am having an entertainment unit custom built which means I can design a housing especially for the speaker (if they are bookshelf) and the sub. I also realize that for the sub, if the sound is projected vertically, it will lead to the entertainment unit vibrating (which means I have to hide it outside of the unit). Will "embedding" the speakers distort the sound in any way? + I've contemplated whether the HK445 is overkill here given my music bias. I am looking at an AVR with dual-zone capability. If I have to allocate $ for the receiver elsewhere, I'll consider it (by adding separate components at a later date). + Let me try to explain why I consider myself not really into movies. I "watch" movies as much for the score as anything else. I remember the experience of watching Star Wars for the first time in a theatre where the highlight for me was sitting there listening to the John Williams score as the end credits rolled (while everyone was streaming out of the theatre). I can't talk about the technical aspects such as decays and crossovers. The enjoyment for me is picking up subtleties and nuances of a recording . To borrow a phrase from Marc, I very much enjoy the "cohesive music experience" whether I'm watching a DVD or listening to a CD + Having said that, I want the option to having to do w/o the sub even though there is a distinct possibility that I will add one later. I loose that flexibility if I go with bookshelves right off the bat. Thanks for all the product recommendations. I am one where I'd like to be deliberate in doing my homework. The pointers and references given were very helpful |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3464 Registered: Mar-05 | > The enjoyment for me is picking up subtleties and nuances of a recording . That to me sounds like you'd enjoy highly detailed speakers more than "warm" ones. Of course the perfect speaker would be both "warm" and "detailed" at the same time, but I haven't heard any that fit this description. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2529 Registered: Feb-05 | "Warm" sounding gear whether it be electronics or speakers can be as detailed any other gear. It's really only at mid fi or below that warm seems to be synonymous with "lacking detail". "Warm" actually speaks to a particular type of coloration to sound and not that details are missing. The expensive speakers from Sonus Faber are characterized as warm and lush sounding but they are also very detailed. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 269 Registered: Jul-05 | Art is saying the right stuff as usual. Warm and detail can be heard in the same speaker without a doubt. |
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Bronze Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 78 Registered: Nov-05 | My aerial acoustics fit that bill! You spoke for me Art! |
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Bronze Member Username: Jorge59Rio de JaneiroBrasil Post Number: 66 Registered: May-05 | John, When I read you saying "I can design a housing especially for the speaker (if they are bookshelf)", I wondered if you (or the architect in charge...) would by any chance design a small closed niche for the bookshelves. Please remember that many speakers are rear ported and need space to sound their best. So, depending on the project (if they are "inserted" on a bookcase or attached to the wall), you will have to use sealed speakers. I'd suggest you try the B&W DM 600 S3: sealed, compact, nice looking, and detailed, with excellent SQ and soundstage at $ 350/pr. |
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Bronze Member Username: BobsacamenoPost Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks for the tip on the housing for the speaker. The good news is that I can still tinker with the layout of the unit... "Detailed and warm" are more accurate descriptors of what I am looking for. So far, the 2 makers that I heard, Aerial Acoustics and Sonus Faber are out of my price range. Any other options at a lower price point? |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 270 Registered: Jul-05 | you should peruse the classifieds at audiogon.com |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 687 Registered: Dec-03 | Being a fan of classical music you may want to consider a pair of full range speakers as opposed to a 2.1 system. A good full range speaker capable of acceptable reproduction of complex classical arrangements tend to cost more but when you're dealing with a large soundstage and multiple instruments it's hard to beat a good 3 way floorstander. Cellos, string bass, tympani, and bass drums are in different places in the orchestral configuration. While it is said that low frequency notes are non-directional it sure is nice when the entire bass note, including harmonics, comes from the same place. If you've got the space and the budget I recommend looking that direction. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3468 Registered: Mar-05 | > The expensive speakers from Sonus Faber are characterized as warm and lush sounding but they are also very detailed. Hmm, my cousin has some Sonus Faber bookshelves (not sure what model) albeit running off a Yamaha 1500 that I heard over the holidays. Pleasant enough and certainly detailed, but I am not sure I would characterize them as "warm" in the same way that I'd call Tim's Alegria Lings "warm." |
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Bronze Member Username: BobsacamenoPost Number: 14 Registered: Apr-05 | Timn8ter, What you are said about the low frequency notes is exactly my experience. I've listened to the same recording with and without a sub (keeping it as much of an apples-to-apples comparison with other components). I've defnitely noticed the difference when the entire bass line or even section comes from the same place (as in a floorstander) vis-a-vis a sub. As I am in the process of re-laying out my room, I have some flexibility in the footprint. Do you have any recommendations in the <$1,000/pr range and also the $1,000-$2,000/pr range? Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 690 Registered: Dec-03 | Being a commercial entity I must refrain from recommending specific products (other than my own of course). Having recently developed, what I consider, a very high quality floor standing 3-way I can recommend the Alegria Audio Myra. What most people find objectionable about reasonably priced floorstanders is the lack of imaging compared to a good standmount. I think I've overcome that with the Myra. http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/news.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: RikmeisterHometown, Pa Usa Post Number: 49 Registered: Jun-05 | you may want to look at some vienna acoustic mozarts at audiogon.com you may find them for like 900.00 they are great for classical with silk dome tweeters. if you have a magnolia near you go listen to them. dali is another good one. look for silk dome tweeters for classical. |