Jonathan JL xr's vs. zr's
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New member Username: Doc_obrienMillersville, PA USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | Jonathan, I saw in another thread that you heard the zr's and liked the sound. I was wondering what you thought of the difference between the zr's and xr's. No one in my area has the zr's so I haven't had the chance to listen to them. Anyone else that has heard both, all input is welcomed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4925 Registered: May-04 | ZRs are a pretty big improvement. Much nicer crossover (higher grade components, more tuning ability), more attention to linearity of the drivers through FEA analysis and using differing motor designs, stiffer basket, and the drivers are matched to closer tolerances. As far as actual sound, the tonality is similar to the XRs, but the ZRs overall are smoother sounding and more dynamic. Midrange is clearer, bass output is more powerful, tweeter is a bit cleaner and smoother due to the linearity. Very nice set. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4730 Registered: Nov-04 | Jnoathan, you need to open up a speaker shop. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1239 Registered: May-05 | ..or a speaker company. |
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New member Username: Doc_obrienMillersville, PA USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Oct-05 | Thanks alot. Appreciate the input. |
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Silver Member Username: ThigpenRVA, Va Usa Post Number: 150 Registered: Sep-05 | how much do the Zrs usually run? how much for the Xrs? |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4926 Registered: May-04 | Zrs are right at $800 (6.5"). XRs are just under $400. While the differences in tonality are more subtle, the main benefit of the ZRs over the XRs is their ability to stay linear and perform cleanly at higher volumes, probably so that they can keep up with JLs W6v2 and W7 subs. The linearity and the crossover quality does pay off at any levels, but you'll notice the difference most at higher output. Word of advice, Doc, if you're considering the price bracket that the ZRs are in, I highly recommend you look into SEAS Lotus Reference component speakers. The ZRs are very nice, but the Lotus components are simply incredible. Some of the best out there at any price, and they're a bit cheaper than the ZRs at around $750. www.mobilesq.com is the authorized US dealer for them, and you can read up on the components here: www.seaslotus.com |
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Silver Member Username: SolacedagonyNew Jersey US Post Number: 536 Registered: Oct-04 | Not to hijack your thread, but how are the SEAS Lotus Performance sets? Much closer to my price range. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4929 Registered: May-04 | Haven't heard the Performance set, but I've heard great things about them. |
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New member Username: Doc_obrienPA USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Oct-05 | Looking into the lotus references. Thanks for the advice. Did you have a preference between the aluminum and fabric tweeters? Also, I dont have much experience using seperate crossovers and different impendences for one set of components how will that affect amplification? Currently using a jl 300/4. How will that amp be for either set of components? |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4936 Registered: May-04 | "Looking into the lotus references. Thanks for the advice. Did you have a preference between the aluminum and fabric tweeters? Also, I dont have much experience using seperate crossovers and different impendences for one set of components how will that affect amplification? Currently using a jl 300/4. How will that amp be for either set of components?" Typical stereotypes apply to the tweeters. The aluminums are very smooth for a metal dome (smoothest I've heard in a car), but they can still be a tad bright on material that isn't recorded well. A bit more shimmer and raw detail to them over the fabric, while the fabric is more forgiving on less than stellar material (90% of music out there) and is a bit more natural and open out of the box. If you didn't find the XR tweeters bright, you'll like the SEAS Aluminum tweeter. Basically, if I were listening to more well recorded material like Jazz, Blues, Acoustic, things like that, I'd prefer the aluminum. If I were to listen to more Rock, Pop, heavier stuff, and overall just more mainstream music, I'd take the fabric. About amplification, the seperate crossovers will perform the same as if it were only one, only difference is that you'll run one more wire per channel. The impedance will still be the same as if it were one crossover. With the 300/4 with either set, I would bridge it and run 150W to the comps. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1250 Registered: May-05 | jonathan, for the best of both worlds, would you suggest going with the metal highs, and maybe attenuating the harsher regions/bands (eq) and saving the setting for music as such? |
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Bronze Member Username: Sinx85Post Number: 70 Registered: Sep-05 | hey jonathan, can you please tell me if these are the jl xrs you are talking about JL AUDIO XR650-CSi on ebay i they go for about $199 ? are they real ? thankx |
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Silver Member Username: SpyderEglin AFB, Florida USA Post Number: 158 Registered: Jun-05 | Those are the Real deal man.....for 200 bones.....that is a great deal man!! |
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Bronze Member Username: Sinx85Post Number: 75 Registered: Sep-05 | also jl xr are 75 rms and cdt , polk momo are around 120 to 150 rms. Will jl sound better even they are less rms ? |
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Silver Member Username: SpyderEglin AFB, Florida USA Post Number: 162 Registered: Jun-05 | i am running mine on 120 watts rms......some people will disagree but usually the more power you give them the better they will sound.....just gotta make sure their is no distortion.....power isn't what blows a speaker....it's the distortion...and yes the JL's will get loud even with the lower power rms!! and they will sound good doing it!! |
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New member Username: SquiggyUtica, Kentucky USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | How do the Seas Lotus Perfomance set size up compared to the JL's and the Reference? |
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Bronze Member Username: Sinx85Post Number: 76 Registered: Sep-05 | will jl xr sound good in stock location of expedition ? |
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Bronze Member Username: OlogyaudioColumbus, Oh USA Post Number: 23 Registered: Oct-05 | PS I have a dealer's account with madisound -- and the lotus are going under the knife... I have the opportunity to pick up the last few reference sets they have for a bit of savings... (found out about this awhile ago -- no clue if there are any left now...) If anyone needs anything with madisound I can hook the forum members up ;) |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4937 Registered: May-04 | "jonathan, for the best of both worlds, would you suggest going with the metal highs, and maybe attenuating the harsher regions/bands (eq) and saving the setting for music as such?" Main reason a metal dome sounds like metal is because of harmonics exciting the resonance of the diaphragm, which is around 25khz for most metal domes. So basically a 12.5khz tone could excite the resonance of the metal diaphragm and that will affect the overall performance. You also run into beaming issues with a tweeter, which contributes to its harshness as well, and a lot of noise and static is in the region that beaming occurs. Softies tend to damp this, metals get a little more excited. Poorly recorded music tends to have a lot of distortion and a lot of harmonics in it, which is the main reason for harshness. You could EQ it down at the points that excite resonance, but you take away from the treble region altogether and it won't sound as it should. Best thing to do would be to aim the tweeter away from you where its intensity isn't right into your ear, you will approach a balanced sound that way, but you lose top octave extension due to beaming. This is the main reason that you need a good motor system to drive any metal driver. The smoothness of all the Lotus drivers is the combination of the motor and in the case of the tweeter, the rolloff at the top octave. Either way, though, you can get desired results with either tweeter. The differences are actually pretty subtle as well, which I can't say about most tweeters from companies. |
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Bronze Member Username: OlogyaudioColumbus, Oh USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Oct-05 | I was always under the impression that the main tweeter mode (in this example at 25khz) was caused by ringing when the driver's diaphragm starts to no longer behave like a piston -- This is related to the speed of sound through the material (approximated as sqrt(Young'sModulus/rho)) and the length of the diaphragm from end to end (over simplified model... as cone topology and the surround changes this effect) So I thought ringing occurred at F0 and multiples of F0 (25, 50, 75, 100k) -- and depending on how nicely the modes fit physically on the cone... alters the frequency response from 'ideal' to -- large peaks and nulls... All about phase angles ;) I think metal has a bad name because too many designs are improperly executed and have breakup modes poping their ugly heads simply due to a compromised young's modulus because when working with materials this thin it can be very easy to cause deflection of the diaphragm material if forces are applied at a less than ideal angle... Ringing at 7khz or 12khz and associated harmonic distortion can be nasty on the ears... not to mention THD starts creeping up as you approach the tweeter's Fs (dependant on motor design) -- Since metal is inherently poor at self damping these harmonics that would have been damped slightly by a doped silk dome are there for your poor ears to hear right in the critical midrange... This can be taken care of with proper motor and xover design though  If there is another mechanism at play here I would love to learn about it I've never seen it discussed before... |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4939 Registered: May-04 | "I was always under the impression that the main tweeter mode (in this example at 25khz) was caused by ringing when the driver's diaphragm starts to no longer behave like a piston --" That's what I was referring to, it's just commonly referred to as a resonance, breakup, whatever word you choose, it's the dome getting floppy as speed of the diaphragm increases . Beaming poses audible problems as well, and unlike the cone breakup it is within audible range, you'd have to have a 1/4" or smaller tweeter to push beaming to 20khz. "So I thought ringing occurred at F0 and multiples of F0 (25, 50, 75, 100k) -- and depending on how nicely the modes fit physically on the cone... alters the frequency response from 'ideal' to -- large peaks and nulls... All about phase angles ;)" Which is true. What I was referring to was that often harmonics from a tone (say 12.5k) are capable of exciting the main breakup (ex: 25k) and frequencies above that, while they may be many decibels quieter they will still affect the overall performance of the driver due to the diaphragm flexing, and tend to color the sound. This is why metal midbass drivers are typically crossed over around 2 octaves lower than the cone breakup mode. I think one of the best audible indicators of energy storage is the transparency and neutrality of a driver, such as the difference between a metal cone midrange vs. a paper/poly coned one, in which the metal cone (if good) is typically superior. I'm sure that's the biggest difference that you hear when comparing the Dayton Reference drivers to others. Of course all drivers have breakup modes, the main question is how intense, where it occurs at, and how you can control it. That's why I feel the big downside (possibly the only one) of metal tweeters is that you can't cross them over around 2 octaves below the diaphragm breakup like you can a midrange or midbass driver, and softies damp the sound to an extent that resonances are more tolerable. "I think metal has a bad name because too many designs are improperly executed and have breakup modes poping their ugly heads simply due to a compromised young's modulus because when working with materials this thin it can be very easy to cause deflection of the diaphragm material if forces are applied at a less than ideal angle..." Which I most certainly agree with. Most metal dome harshness is from a poor motor design or just a poor dome design, many times with breakup modes present in audible range. A compact tweeter is a bad foundation for a good motor design anyway, and you will sacrifice SQ if you want a tweeter that can squeeze into a sail panel. I find that most harshness people percieve isn't from the tweeter as much as the midbass/midrange driver, because many don't know the difference. What some point out as a harsh tweeter can quite possibly be a midbass driver that has horrible breakup characteristics that the crossover didn't solve. Most compact metal domes can't handle a low xover frequency that well and need a midbass crossed over higher to mate with it, which I think accounts for a portion of the percieved harshness. |
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New member Username: Doc_obrienPA USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Oct-05 | I was reading about how the JLs, or atleast the xr's, can be pretty picky about how they are installed in order to get the best sound out of them. Are the zr's pretty much the same? How do the seas lotus comps compare on install flexibility? Cant really do kicks in my vehicle, so all work has to be done on the doors. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4946 Registered: May-04 | SEAS comps will be more forgiving with an off axis install. JLs use a higher crossover frequency and the crossover is designed more for installs such as those in kick panels. |
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Gold Member Username: Tdeaton1021Near Tampa, Florida USA Post Number: 1146 Registered: Sep-04 | whoever said Xr componetns rms is 75wrms... you should look at JLs site because it says reccomended amplifer wattage up to 150wrms. they are made to go witht the 450/4 front channels. so the 75w rms is highly underrated. |
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Silver Member Username: ThigpenRVA, Va Usa Post Number: 179 Registered: Sep-05 | i saw that someone said the XR's werent designed for simple installations. I was planning on installing them in my car around x-mas, but was planning on putting them flush in my door with the tweeters in the stock spot up on the dash under the windshield.. will i be fine with them there running about 100-150 wrms to them? i know everyone says kickpods, but im on a budget and the 300 it would cost me for the kickpods = my 2 10" RE SE's so to me its not worth it, but maybe later after i have some more money after the holidays, but back to the point, will i be fine with the stock spots, or should i just get the subs now, and save up for kickpods later and get the speakers and kickpods together |
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