Outlaw LFM-1 vs. Hsu VTF 3?
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Bronze Member Username: BigfanPost Number: 98 Registered: Jan-04 | I'm trying to decide between these 2. I know the LFM-1 was designed by Dr Hsu so maybe the difference is immaterial. The Hsu looks to go to a lower frequency (20 vs 25 hz) and weighs more, for whatever those are worth; the Outlaw has a wider range of crossover adjustment and is about $100 less. |
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Silver Member Username: JamespMansfield , TX USA Post Number: 122 Registered: Apr-04 | Having owned the VTF-3 for about 6 months now I can say it is an awesome sub for the money. BUT, unless you are into pipe organ music there is very little information below 25Hz to justify needing the extra extension. It can be compared to buying a vehicle with 4 wheel drive and never using it. Some may disagree with me but this has been my experience. You might want to check if the LFM-1 can be upgraded with the super charger deally HSU is currently working on. That will give you the added extension of the VTF-3 if you feel the need for it. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1006 Registered: Feb-04 | James, Your posts makes me happy with my choice of the STF-3, rated down to 25 Hz. I couldn't afford the VTF-3 anyway when I bought mine last fall. In the US, the VTF-3 is only $699 compared to the STF-3's $599 (17% more). In Canada, the VTF-3 is C$999.50 (US$813) compared to the STF-3 at C$799.50 (US$650) (25% more) making the STF-3 a better bargain. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1691 Registered: Jan-05 | James, Surely you're kidding, right??? Many of todays movies have incredibly demanding soundtracks, and you'll need every bit of extension you can get if you wish to listen to movies how they were meant to be heard. Maybe if your sub is for music only, that might be the case, but that couldnt be further from the truth for many of todays movie soundtracks. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1011 Registered: Feb-04 | Paul, his post implies it's for music (reference to pipe organ). You are correct about movies, and it's getting worse. "The Incredibles" has content down to 5 Hz! Unless you have a mecanical bass shaker, what sub can reproduce that? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1700 Registered: Jan-05 | Exactly, How in the heck can he neglect to mention the obscenely demanding nature of movie soundtracks??? His........"Low Extension doesnt matter if you dont play pipe organ music" is incorrect. There is, in fact, tons of "information out there"(as James put it), with extremely low frequencies recorded into their soundtracks. Considering bigfan didnt single-out either music or movies in his origional question, I thought I should bring that up, since Jim neglected to do so, because there are, in fact, tons of reasons you would need low extension capabilities. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 416 Registered: Apr-04 | You can't hear 5hz anyways BUT you could feel it! |
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Silver Member Username: JamespMansfield , TX USA Post Number: 134 Registered: Apr-04 | My apologies to bigfan if I may have steered him in the wrong direction. I have listened to the VTF-3 tuned to 20Hz and 25 HZ quite a bit. Yes there is a difference but not much under normal conditions. Whether it be music or movies. You really have to listen for the differences. Since the LFM-1 is essentially a VTF-3 tuned to 25 Hz I feel I can make this comparison. Unless your room is rather small it will be hard to tell the difference between the two subs. You could easily tell difference between the two when playing material with lots of strong sustained lfe below 25Hz. Such as pipe organ music. The little bit you get in movies could get easily missed. Now on ther hand, Paul has the PB12/PLUS2 which is in an entirely different league from the HSU based subs you are intersted in. He is hearing everything below 25Hz loud and clear. I can see how he benefits from the extension and feels strongly about the extra 5Hz of extension. IT would take 3 VTF-3's to outdo his SVS and the VTF-3's would still not go as low. PAul's SVS can play down to 16Hz and knock most people over with Bass. I have come to the conclusion that the extra 5Hz didn't win me over. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1341 Registered: Feb-05 | My experience with SVS was that they have a great deal of low poor sounding bass. Honestly I had a model that was below Paul's but with the same cabinet and you could feel the cabinet vibrate substantially and hear the mighty wind blowing out of the massive ports. Not what I was looking for. I think the LFM-1 looks like a good buy. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1709 Registered: Jan-05 | Your sub did not have the same cabinet as mine. You got the 'beginner' model, and is in no way comperable to the Plus/2. You're only kidding yourself if you think the cheap model is any indication of quality produced by the higher end models. I cant speak for the bottom of the line ISD models though, because I dont have one. Maybe they do sound like crap. If you've read the many reviews, my model is known to go down near 10-11hz  Since getting the sub, I've mostly had the selector set to 20hz, but recently started playing around with lower settings. Even with the selecter set at 20hz level, it still has fairly strong response down to about 16hz. When it comes to movies, no sub in that price range can remotely sniff the SVS quality or output. As for music???.....I wouldnt know since I watch movies with my home theater....not music. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 132 Registered: Apr-05 | "As for music???...I wouldn't know since I watch movies with my home theater...not music." Don't virtually all movies, even dramas and action movies, have music soundtracks in addition to the explosions and other sound effects? Most of these soundtracks are produced using full orchestras and are an integral part of the movie, creating mood and tension. Don't you listen to the soundtracks? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1378 Registered: Mar-05 | nah, Paul just likes the explosions and gunshots, that's why he loves his Cerwin Vegas so much. Heh! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1720 Registered: Jan-05 | How does the old saying go???...."horses for courses", or something to that effect?? Buying dainty little lightweights for a HT would be about as stupid as betting on a sprinter at a long racetrack venue. Cheese and wine setups have their place, but HT isnt one of them. I've listened to way too many overpriced lightweights(and some not so lightweights), and none of them can hold a candle to what I have for HT purposes. Real movie theaters even sound like crap by comparison. So long as you enjoy your 'halfpint' sound, that's all that's important though. Im sure it goes great with wine. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 526 Registered: Nov-04 | shut up paul. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1368 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul call SVS. My sub did have the same cabinet as yours, yours just had one more hole in it. I wouldn't say that it is my fault that SVS doesn't believe in quality at all price points. If they want to make garbage then they have to suffer the consequences. BTW my sub weighs more pounds per sq inch than yours. I'll take my wine and chesse and perhaps a microbrew or good scotch, you can have your Miller Lite and beer nuts. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1725 Registered: Jan-05 | I have no doubt that your little sub is perfect for your specific uses, as is mine for my own. Hey c'mon...... I dont drink skanky beer, and you know it. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1370 Registered: Feb-05 | I know Paul, I'm just giving you a hard time! :-) |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1037 Registered: Feb-04 | Both you guys are on your way to a top-ten position in numbers of posts on this forum by the end of the year... Currently about 3200 posts needed to be ranked, with Jan just edging out subfanatic for the number two spot. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 133 Registered: Apr-05 |  Yeah, man -- all I gotta do to beat Art is keep thowin' insults at people who got bookshelf speakers. Hey, dat's easy. And don't youse guys forget -- I'm a real man. I got two big ones. Now, if youse guys will excuse me, I gotta get me a Pabst Blue Ribbon and get back to my Jean Claude VanDamme movie. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1734 Registered: Jan-05 | Heh.... I think I've seen that pic before. Any relation on your mothers side??? |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 134 Registered: Apr-05 | Why Mr. Money, what happened to your sense of humor? Have we resorted to involving our mothers now? Tsk, tsk, tsk. The picture, as it turns out, fits you quite well. Here's a quote from your post #3: "I realize that I probably come off as a music NEANDERTHAL (emphasis mine), but I only use my surround system for movies. . ." Earlier in the same post, you made the following admission: "I dont listen to jass (sic) or instrumentals, and dont have the audiophiles ear." AHA!!! That explains everything. Without an "audiophiles ear," how can you possibly offer critical comments on refined, sophisticated bookshelf speakers and maintain any credibility? Also, you never replied to an earlier comment and question. You say you don't listen to music. However, all movies, even the most action-packed thrillers, contain music througout their soundtracks. Music creates mood, heightens tension and enhances the overall movie experience. Are you not hearing the music? Is it that with your gigantic speakers with the mediocre sound you are just hearing background noise and not music? |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 437 Registered: Apr-04 | Jim.......I doubt he hears any music besides SCRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOTCHHH POWWWW BOOOOOOM! That is what comes from those Cerwin Veggies! The SVS is definately overkill for the rest of his system and is worth more than all the garage sale stuff he owns! Any system can make noise Paul and to be honest, your sub is what is making the best of what you have! Without that, you would be in the dark ages! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1745 Registered: Jan-05 | Art, same box you say??? http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_isd.htm http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_plus_2.htm How so?? Not only is it smaller, but it weighs only 78lbs compared to the 140lbs of the latter. I suppose you think the extra 12" driver weighs all of 62lbs too?? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1746 Registered: Jan-05 | Jimv, I listened to $8,000 KEFs while shopping for replacements for my CVs, and thought they sounded like crap.......weak, and dainty. I guess that qualifies me as one who doesnt respect the many snake oil filled boutiques selling today?? |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 141 Registered: Apr-05 | Listening to one set of speakers does not, IMO, qualify you for anything. Regarding your snake oil comment -- I agree with you in part. I believe that as one moves up in price in speakers, one reaches a point of diminishing returns. I suspect that the sound of the $8,000 KEF's probably wasn't worth the money to you. They probably wouldn't be worth it for me either. I've heard $40,000 a pair speakers. They sounded better than $1,000 speakers but nowhere near 40 times better; maybe twice as good at most. Same thing with electronics; there's a point of diminishing returns there too. I don't believe a $20,000 amplifier is worth 20 times what a $1,000 amplifier costs. And there's no question, at least in my mind, that expensive cables and interconnects = snake oil. That said, there are quite a few bookshelf speakers in the $600 - $2000 range which, IMO, are well worth the money. A pair of them and a good sub will produce sound at every Hz across the frequency range from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Why, pray tell, were you shopping for something to replace your beloved CV's anyway? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1749 Registered: Jan-05 | Jimvm, I agree....... The marginal gains arent worth the geometric increase in costs. I've used the same analogy before with receivers comparing my receiver to the YammiZ9. While it's true the Z9 is a better receiver, I'll probably never own one in that class because the incremental quality gains arent proportional to the value I assign to those improvements as they relate to incremental cost. Somebody else might feel entirely the opposite. As far as speakers go???? As soon as something impresses me in the moderate range, I'll buy them. I was never considering those the $8k KEF speakers, but I did consider several others, and nothing impressed me enough to pull my wallet out of the pocket. The funny thing is that the KEF sub impressed me enough and caused me to order the SVS within the following week. SVS should thank KEF for the order..........HEH |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 145 Registered: Apr-05 | Paul - I see you own the RX-V2500. What do you think of it? I'm considering the RX-V1500. BTW bigfan -- sorry for getting off topic on your thread. I don't think you can go wrong with SVS, Hsu or Outlaw. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1753 Registered: Jan-05 | I couldnt think of another receiver that I'd rather buy. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1398 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul - you genius you! You pulled up the wrong sub. The SVS sub that I had is in the same box and the weight difference is accounted for with the drivers. Do your research before you try one upsmanship. http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_isd_v.htm |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1755 Registered: Jan-05 | The ISD-V box isnt the same size, and is still smaller..........and my point, not the same box. |
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Anonymous | bigfan, Going back to your original post, I too was comparing the two models you mentioned. I decided on the HSU VTF-3. Yes it was a little more in price but the customer service I received while researching the unit was outstanding. This was one factor, another is the upcoming turbo charger upgrade, this will give the sub the ability to play even lower. I am waiting for my sub to get here, so I can't say how it is until I hook it up. The one aspect I liked on Outlaw's model is the downfire ports to reduce noise. I will have to see if it is an issue with the VTF-3. |
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New member Username: PatnshanWisconsin USA Post Number: 9 Registered: Aug-05 | I agree about the customer service. I just got two e-mails from Dr. Hsu himself approximately 10 minutes after I sent a request for info! I too was looking at the Outlaw due to price, but now knowing I can "talk" directly to the founder of the Hsu Research company nearly immediately, I will probably get the STF-3 now! Pat |
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