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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1510 Registered: Mar-05 | A. Shop's system: NAD c372 integrated amp, Monitor Reference towers, some very expensive-looking flat fiber-optic-looking cables. B. Contestants: 1. Sony CA7-ES carousel 2. Pioneer 563 universal player 3. Marantz 4300 carousel 4. NAD c542 C. Audition CD: I brought five or six, but ended up mostly using the Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" CD because the shop had a copy too. D. General impressions: Well I have to give it to the CDP-Skeptics: differences Do exist, but for me were quite subtle for the most part. Certainly not anywhere as night-and-day as there can be with speakers and amps. E. Specific impressions: The Pioneer certainly had the harshest sound to my ears...Norah's voice became shrill and flat, quite unpleasant. Quick elimination. The biggest surprise: my Sony ES was very very close to the NAD c542 in sound quality! After replaying the same 10 seconds of one of the songs on both machines, I did notice that the NAD had a slight edge in midrange smoothness and longer decay but they were neck and neck in every other respect. The dark horse CDP: the Marantz 4300 had a very interesting and distinct sound---crisp, kinetic (as in snap crackle pop), and nice punchy bass notes. I noticed that its volume level was noticeably lower than the others for some reason; I always had to increase the amp's volume whenever I switched back to it from another CDP. Of all of the CDPs I discovered that the Sony was the easiest to skip forwards and backwards within the same track. Ease of use and features were also superior. Right now though I am finding that the NAD's slight improvement in midrange smoothness and the Marantz's punchy bass and very interesting delivery not quite enough to override my need to upgrade the subwoofer first. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1476 Registered: Feb-05 | You are missing something in your audition. The Marantz is light years ahead of your Sony and the NAD is at least that far ahead of the Marantz. Remember I've owned all three. Listen to several cd's of different kinds of music and listening for different elements of the music. Take some acoustic jazz, rock, classical, vocal and son on. If you still come to the same conclusion I would be surprised. Oh and listen for awhile not just a few seconds of a track. Just as with amps the differences really are night and day you just have to give it a chance to manifest itself. Even though you said they weren't, don't forget your quick elimination of the Pioneer. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1516 Registered: Mar-05 | you used to own a Sony CDP? Wow, I didn't know that. Which model was it? Yeah, the Pioneer surprised me. I had read so many people calling it a "giant killer," LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1517 Registered: Mar-05 | The Sony ES series is supposed to be their top of the line "audiophile" series, or at least claims to be. So it's supposed to be definitely better than the low-end Sonys. I think mine originally retailed for upwards of $300-400 when it came out maybe 5-10 years ago. Actually I remember Aaron (the sales guy) telling me after I bought the Marantz 5400 from him last year that Sony CDPs are far and away the best of the mass-market brands and came very close to the more expensive CDPs. I found that interesting coming from a guy who does believe in cables making a significant difference, he's quite the audio mystic himself. Speaking of cables, he mentioned having some "trial lengths" of cables that he lets customers take home. I might just do that, out of curiousity! He also mentioned the possibility of letting me home demo a floor model, so I will ask for the c542 since that's the one that so many people tend to praise highly. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 273 Registered: Dec-03 | I have a CA9-ES which I don't use (I replaced with an Arcam CD92T). I bought the Sony to replace a Marantz CD6000OSE. I felt the Sony was better than the Marantz in every aspect of playback, and build. I bought the Marantz because I thought it sounded a lot better than the comparable NAD (I think it was the C541) in the dealers show room. Now my Sony had multiple power supplies and the same DAC as their $3000 Player. The CA7-ES does not have as good of a build, but It doesn't supprise me that one would prefer it to a Marantz (or a NAD). |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1478 Registered: Feb-05 | Edster, I don't remember the model # of the Sony, speaking of quick eliminations. I won't even address the "Sony as the best mass market CD player" comment from the sales guy. Suffice it to say that's like stating that Bose is the best of the mass market speakers. Just keep at it Edster I'm confident that your ears will find something you like. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1219 Registered: Feb-04 | NAD C541 < Marantz CD6000OSE < Sony CA9-ES < Arcam CD92T Ouch. That's a lot of expensive gear. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1519 Registered: Mar-05 | Ben, > The CA7-ES does not have as good of a build, but It doesn't supprise me that one would prefer it to a Marantz (or a NAD). Well I don't know that I prefer the Sony OVER the Marantz and NAD, only that I find the differences between them fairly insignificant at this point. The Marantz had a more distinctive sound to it and was much easier to distinguish apart from the Sony and NAD, though I wonder if I might find it fatiguing over long periods because it's so crisp. |
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Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 274 Registered: Dec-03 | I didn't buy the NAD. I got a deal on the Sony. The Arcam was expensive, but worth it. My 6000OSE has a bold sound and is a little tinny in the highs. The main issue that I have with it, besides some disc read problems that plagued the 6000OSE, is it produces an extremely compressed soundstage for my tastes. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1520 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, > Suffice it to say that's like stating that Bose is the best of the mass market speakers. LOL but *that* wouldn't even be true because the Bose has mass market low quality but at audiophile prices. For the Sony ES to be compared to the Bose, it would have to retail for maybe $1000 instead of the $300-400 it originally did. The funny thing is that he wasn't even referring to the Sony ES models, just the standard ones that go for $70-150. And since he mostly sells NAD, Marantz, Roksan, and Pioneer Elite CDPs, I don't see any particular vested interest in him saying that. > Just keep at it Edster I'm confident that your ears will find something you like. Well I'm getting a little nervous because I'd feel guilty taking up much more of his time and then end up not buying any of his CDPs if I continue to not pick up any striking differences between them. He's a very likeable person; I'd feel less guilty about it if he were more of a stereotypical salesperson. Anyways, right now I'm thinking maybe I should just order the Onix CD88-X to home audition and just pay return shipping in case I still don't hear any big improvement within the 30 day trial period. I can handle a $10-20 home auditioning fee... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 654 Registered: Jun-05 | I think thats a good idea Edster,but i doubt you would want to send it back when you can sit back and chill and just listen,you should have a lot of fun. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1483 Registered: Feb-05 | Rock on dude! Trust me Edster you never know what his vested interest is. He may have sold his sister a Sony and feels guilty enough to justify it to everyone vicariously. :-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1484 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh and Eddie I meant that he may have sold that Sony ata previous job. Believe it, unless this is his first job in hifi it is one in a long series. I know, leave it to a social worker to think of some convoluted reason for his odd statement. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1522 Registered: Mar-05 | Well you know me Tawaun, if I had both the Onix and the Sony in my house I'd be unable to stop myself from switching back and forth between them at least once every ten minutes. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1523 Registered: Mar-05 | > Trust me Edster you never know what his vested interest is. He may have sold his sister a Sony and feels guilty enough to justify it to everyone vicariously. :-) My goodness Art, what did Sony ever do to you? Is it totally UNTHINKABLE to you that the ES model I have might not be *that* bad? lol I guess I have a similar attachment to my views about George W. Bush. Well let's not go there, Paul might be lurking somewhere and next thing you know we'll be having yet another online drama production! : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1524 Registered: Mar-05 | Anyways, Marc is loaning me his UFW-10 sub next Monday for a few hours, I should be able to decide real quick if I want to get that one or go with the Hsu STF-2 that Quinn loaned me while I was auditioning the Lings... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1485 Registered: Feb-05 | I own a Sony TV. My radio at work is a sony. If you read my comments on the thread dedicated to Sony you would see that I have nothing against the company. Here are my comments. "Sony Hmmm....My personal experience has been that Sony still produces better than average televisions and are still a leader in the development of new technologies. However their audio components are far below average in most price ranges. A notable exception being that their low priced SACD players have until recently sounded better than players at 3-5 their cost. The SACD players still had dismal redbook performance but provided folks an inexpensive peek into the world of hi res audio." Gotta see the whole picture, not the slice of life picture. Hasta la vista. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 656 Registered: Jun-05 | Edster you are gonna like that Music Hall CD25 thats what it still is to me {well Onix}.Edster check into that Dayton sub its more musical than the Hsu and goes almost as low. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1526 Registered: Mar-05 | heh, as Paul would say. I was just kidding you there a little Art. I know you're not an anti-Sony fanatic. An audio mystic maybe, but that's OK in my book. ; ) I do have a Sony mini-CD camera which is pretty handy, and a Sony clock radio. The first was a gift and the second has served me pretty well for how little it cost. I'd love to have someone like you and Tawaun sit with me in a room AB-ing different CDPs though, because my ears are simply not picking up more than subtle differences. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1527 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, have you listened to both the Dayton and the Hsu sub yourself? I would be very surprised if you've had the Dayton, your tastes seem to be much more expensive than that. I have always read on audio forums people praising the Dayton for its low-budget HT performance, but never for its music performance like the Hsu. Interesting! I'm very curious to hear what a sealed sub sounds like though, I'm told they're much faster and more accurate so they're supposed to be ideal for music. Art isn't your Era sub sealed too? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 658 Registered: Jun-05 | Well Eddie I dont use a sub with music,my uncle has the stf 2,Eddie parts express is in Springboro,Ohio which is about 12 miles from my front door {hence} Dayton parts.They had it set up with one of the speaker kits with a Moral tweater and Peerless woofer,and it sounded very impressive and I even considered buying the speakers{wow they are one of the best deals out there $379.I happened to have my Fourplay Heartfelt Cd on me so I put it on #10 Kharma very good test track with some very fast bass notes and it kept up and had anice tonality and good punch.It was very nice it was the first time in along time that enjoyed a sub with music without any complaints.Hey that Dayton sub im willing to bet its best sub out there for the money.They have some pretty good reviews on audioreview.Don Kelly is thinking about buying it if he already hasnt,Peter G. is also aware of its musical abilities over the Hsu,dayton makes some killer drivers,apparently that sub has a real musical amp |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1530 Registered: Mar-05 | That's very surprising...how can it be so cheap? I also noticed that the cabinet of the 12" model is about 25% smaller in volume than the STF-2 which is a 10" model. Their website doesn't list the weight, which makes me wonder a little. I had the impression that with ported subs, weight and box volume are usually good indicators of quality. BTW the Dayton that you heard, do you remember if it was the 10" or 12" model? I've read that some people consider the smaller woofer to be better faster and better for music at the cost of not going as low as bigger woofers... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1487 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep Eddie my Era sub is sealed. The demo I had until mine came in was the 15th one out of the factory. The one I have now is the 355th. Not alot of them have sold yet. Too bad because it is the most musical sub at anywhere near it's price. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 662 Registered: Jun-05 | It was the 12 Eddie remember the 12 is newest edition to thier line,so most of the reviews may be on the 10,but I did see a couple reviews on the 12 and they had similar opinions to mine,oh and Eddie I gave you the wrong price $536 is the correct price well I guess at that price it should be but many at that price are incapable following a tune in that regard I find it pretty remarkable especially considering 99% of the subs at under $800 are not designed for music at all,but nevertheless it is very good for music at that price if it can be half as musical as Arts sub than it is good deal and worth looking into. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1531 Registered: Mar-05 | What, $536? You must be talking about a different sub then. I thought you were talking about this sub, that's why I was so surprised: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-634&ctab=14#T abs Were you referring to this one here? http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-763 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1532 Registered: Mar-05 | Art is there a link to your sub? I was just a little curious about its size, weight and power ratings. I'm sure it's way the heck out of my price range though. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 664 Registered: Jun-05 | Edster the 10 in the Titanic line could be quite tasty Id love to hear that one. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1493 Registered: Feb-05 | They have a very poor website as yet. In fact it's worse than Green Mountains website. I'll provide you with the link. It really doesn't have any info. The size of the sub 18H(with spikes)x14Wx11D. It weighs 70lbs and has bass extension down to 25hz at 100db. It is clean beyond belief. The Era subs were designed by Michael Kelly of Aerial Acoustics fame to compete directly with REL subs at a lower price. He succeeded! They are part of the Signal Path International which also has Musical Fidelity. http://www.signalpathint.com/default.htm http://www.signalpathint.com/Era/ERA%20MAIN.htm For more detailed info I just emailed David Solomon and he was happy to provide what I needed. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1533 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun have you ever heard any tube subwoofers? I am intrigued at this type of design, it's supposed to be better for music. http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pci_25-31.htm |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 667 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie me and Art talked about the Era gear a few weeks ago right before I bought the Epiphonys,Iwas considering geting the Era Design 5s and i came very close.Micheal Kelly voiced the whole lineup with the Muscal Fidelity X-Ray gear,so know I was about to take the plunge espeacially him being my favorite speaker designer and all.Yes good for home theater quite boomy for music certainlly not my cup of tea the tube subs are a compramise for music a clear trade for SPLs for muscality trully a Paul trademark |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 595 Registered: Nov-04 | i remember jan posting a review of the MMGs where the reviewer tried mating various subs to them and had acually tried using the tube sub from svs. according to him the match should have been decent since the cardboard tube is supposed to be very rigid and does not add colouration. he ended up not liking it. i thought that was interesting considering your experience with the sub tawaun. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1534 Registered: Mar-05 | > the tube subs are a compramise for music a clear trade for SPLs for muscality Interesting! I thought it was the other way around. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 674 Registered: Jun-05 | It was supposed to be,but for some reason it hasnt turned out like that.Arts Era Sub will tapdance around them all day and make them sound very slow.I think when you go to the tubes it becomes more placement sinsitive than the speakers themselves.With the right placement which is extremely difficult considering you have to worry enough about your speakers placement becomes very hard to do,espeacially in a small room maybe impossible. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1494 Registered: Feb-05 | For Maggies the best matches are the REL, Vandersteen, and Era subs. My friend has his 3.6's mated with my Era Sub and says it's the best they've ever sounded. TW meant that the tube sub was boomy not the Era. |
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T2T Unregistered guest | [q]Yeah, the Pioneer surprised me. I had read so many people calling it a "giant killer," LOL![/q] I had the Pioneer 578 for a few months. I wasn't impressed when it came to 2-channel listening. Instead, I opted for the Onix XCD-88 and haven't looked back. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1573 Registered: Mar-05 | Well I've just spent two days with somebody else's Rocket UFW-10 and I think that a sealed enclosure is not for me...at least not in the huge room I'm listening in, and not when I can't afford to buy TWO of them to make up for the low SPL. It's true that the sealed box design allows for faster, better defined bass---it's just that I had to pull a Paul in order to really appreciate it: I put my head about six inches in front of the woofer! The UFW-10 is a beautiful little thing though...I just wish I had a much smaller room to go with it! OK, Dr. Hsu here I come... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1532 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't forget Eddie, all sealed enclosure's were not created equal. Remember you are not supposed to hear the sub. If it's well integrated the only way you know the sub is really there is because you are getting better bass extension than you were with your speakers alone. I get 25hz at 100db, you don't have to pull a Paul to know that it's doing it's job. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1580 Registered: Mar-05 | I'm curious Art, how big is your room? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1534 Registered: Feb-05 | Edster - It doesn't matter what size my room is. Have you ever heard of REL subs or Vandersteen. I've heard those sealed subs in huge showrooms and peoples full sized basements filling the room with bass. Perhaps that Rocket sub ain't all that. :-) Truthfully though if you want slam for home theater a ported sub may be for you. I want something a little more musical. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1587 Registered: Mar-05 | > Have you ever heard of REL subs or Vandersteen. No I haven't, though I suspect those are probably far beyond my budget constraints. > Truthfully though if you want slam for home theater a ported sub may be for you. Yeah I am thinking that too. Since auditioning the Lings with the STF-2, and then recently the UFW-10 I am slowly coming around to the realization that I may just be what is often referred to as a "basshead!" : ) OMG this means I have a lot in common with Paul even if I don't watch his kind of movies...HELP!!! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1537 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm afraid so Edster....I'll send you a referral for a therapist. The way I see it, with budgets like we have there will always be compromises. There are plenty of very good sounding ported subs. You get one of those Hsu subs and watch out.....your movie tastes may begin to change. Run don't walk to that therapist! :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1592 Registered: Mar-05 | > You get one of those Hsu subs and watch out.....your movie tastes may begin to change. hmm, don't know about that. I'm more of a bass fiend with music. With HT, I'm too much of a movie snob to put up with the cliched/predictable storylines, two dimensional characters, and idiotic dialogue that these action flicks usually come with. I'm guessing by "bass therapist" you're thinking of Paul's SVS? lol! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1796 Registered: Mar-05 | here's a rather surprising update to my CDP situation: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/158402.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1572 Registered: Feb-05 | Surprising to whom? I believe I have been telling you this for how long....One of these days you'll take the old fella's word for it. |