From Noise To Music On a Shoestring?
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 21 Registered: Jul-05 | I'm putting together my first HiFi stereo system. On all counts, this will be a BUDGET system. It's been assembled in just the last few weeks. Previously, I've owned only a standard issue Sony boombox and a Diskman for the last ten years. Earlier on, I listened on a cheap all-in-one Panasonic Receiver (with radio, cassette tape, turntable) vintage 1976. My system as it exists now: -Yamaha A-700 integrated amp (20yrs old, recently acquired for $80) -Philips DVP642 Player. Plays DVD, VCD, MP3, SVCD, CD-R/RW, Commercial CDs. (new , a recent gift, functioning as my CD player). -Gemini XL-BD10 (Belt Drive Semi-Auto Turntable, bought New 15yrs ago, but never played until a couple weeks ago. Includes mystery cartridge I'm trying to ID). -TEAC LS-H100 Speakers (2) [Used, 60Watt, 6?. Small units 7"x8"x4.5", received as gift]. -SONY MDR-CD666 headphones [used, a gift]. -Speaker cables are Home Depot 16g. 'speaker wire'. -All RCA cables are the el cheapo stuff that's ubiquitous with consumer electronics. All the above (with the exception of the turntable) was a gift or hand-me-down. My primary media is CD, and secondary is LP. I think a speaker upgrade would yield the most bang-for-buck at this point, but I'm also shopping for a used Tuner/antenna as well. That should give me the rudiments of a basic budget system. On to the speakers. I've established a budget of between $200-$300 for the pair of speakers. I assume I'll be buying used to get more for my money. I realise many will scoff at the sound I can buy for this small budget, but I need to make it work for now and maybe with patience I'll be fortunate & find a good deal. Hopefully I'll end up with better sound then I've ever had and it wont be fatiguing to listen to for longer periods at a stretch. I'm anticipating (re)discovering a bit more of the music within the recordings that I own, and also learning about the equipment in the process so I'll know how to identify the weaknesses in the system and plan future upgrades. With what I have right now, there isn't much soundstage to speak of. The spatial illusion of instruments and voices arrayed before me like a gyroscope just not there... the sound is definitely coming from the boxes. Bass of course is muddy and indistinct. The music sounds compressed. The highs can be a little piercing and fatiguing to listen to at higher volumes for extended listening sessions. There just isn't much sparkle or magic... I figure the CDP should hold me until the next round of system upgrades and I'll benefit most from new speakers. Now I have to go about finding a suitable pair to fit the characer of my system. This is what Jan had to say about the Yamaha A-700 amp: "It is somewhat bright when compared to the better products; which is mostly a result of the thinner sound on the bottom and mids. Overall the amp doesn't hold together well at its limits, which reflects the cost cutting in the power supply. Within it power restrictions, which should still get sufficiently loud, the amp is probably best described as slightly tilted up from neutral and it doesn't aspire to plumb the depths of low frequency response. " My listening habits are mostly rock & classic rock, some experimental, some blues/jazz / classical. But the lion's share is rock. My listening is split between concert type listening...often sitting and looking at paintings....and general background listening. Room size: 12' x 20'x 9'. Lots of furniture in here though (doubles as art studio). Wood floors. Given the choice (irregardless of sound) small boxes would be better for me given the space. I'll work out whatever needs to be done regarding positioning and setup. How does one do the speaker shopping? I live in NYC & there are several good HiFi Audio stores in NYC. Right now, I'd be wasting an audio salesman's time because it wouldn't make sense for me to buy new speakers, even cheap ones. So how does one go about auditioning equipment? I realise the subjective nature of audio, and each listener's demands, but off the top of your heads, do you folks have any recommendations for a (probably used) audio speaker pair for between $200-$300? I'm merely looking for suggestions to begin my research. These can be currently manufactured products, or discontinued items. I'm not certain how old speakers can be and still sound good, though. I fully realise I'm going to have to do the listening and make the decisions, but I'd like to have some place to start, a general listing of speakers to keep an eye out for. I do look over local classified ads and see speakers listed daily (benefit being I could listen to them) , and I also see them on Audiogon, and I'm sure ebay is also good source. Since this is a budget system, I understand I'm going to have to find great deals to make this happen...so I need to start the patient search process. That's why I'm trying to get a general pool of speaker models to even know what to keep an eye out for. Auditioning: I realise I also need to do more listening to develop my critical facilities, and also to discover my tastes in sound. To understand what is recommended to me, I'll need some sort of benchmark. I have a roommate who has B&W speakers (I think model LM1 ) and a set of used Bose (Model 301 series III). Perhaps I can hook those up to my system as a first step to gaining some sort of reference for a couple different qualities of sound compared to what I now have. Any suggestions? Thanks a bunch! Neal |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 971 Registered: Feb-05 | Suggest you keep your post shorter and much more succinct if you desire a substantive response. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 406 Registered: May-05 | Neal - For speakers, check this out - http://www.hipposaudiovideo.com/closeout1.htm You can't beat this price for a new pair of speakers. The Image 1B's are a great speaker. PSB's are well made and great sounding speaker. I've owned a couple pairs (not these particular ones) of PSB's for about 10 years now. While their are better speakers out there, I don't think you'll find a better one than these for the price. PSB has updated the Image series line, but they sound very similar to the model mentioned here. You could listen to them at a local shop. The warehouse where they ship out of is in Yonkers, so you could save a few bucks by picking them up yourself. That's where I got my last pair of speakers from. You probably won't be able to listen to them there because it is a shipping and receiving warehouse. If you call them, they may have other stuff on closeout that isn't listed on the page. They are authorised dealers for everything they carry, so there's no need for concern regarding that. They may also have a few Jamo's hanging around. I was in their retail store a few weeks ago (in Albany) and they had some very cheap. It looked like they were trying to get rid of what they had. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 180 Registered: Mar-04 | ahhhhhhh. a post after my heart! LOL PSBs are consistently considered to be high value speakers as mentioned. some other speakers that get alot of favorable press in the "bang for the buck" category are: energy wharfdale paradigm axiom ascend epos mission (not too keen on mine though) and definative technology among others. i love my NHT superzeros (no longer made) as they have virtually no box resonances and are imaging champs. their weaknesses are total lack of bass (need sub) and a slightly polite treble. i only paid $188 for my 2nd pair and have liked their sound more than larger $1000 speakers like B&W which had sloppier ported bass and didn't image as precisely but the B&Ws metal dome tweeters totally kicked NHT soft dome tweeter butt in both speed and extension. for bargain basement speakers... infinity can be pretty good to excellent (it was tiny 2 way sealed infinitys that originally turned me into a hi-fi freak), but from i've read in stereophile recently, polk RTi4s are a super value for the dollar. polk has always been respectable even if it's always been more mainstream than PSB for example. ANY of these brands will at least give you speakers that aren't total crap and value for your dollar. my $200 speakers and $200 reciever totally blow the mind of anyone who doesn't really know what hi-fi is that hears my system. you can easily build a decent system on a budget. really, small 2 way speakers are the best value PERIOD. simpler crossover = less frequency abberations and better driver integration smaller cabinet = less box resonances, and less diffraction (better imaging) smaller woofers = quicker bass and they're less obtrusive. especially in a small room, smaller speakers are less likely to overload the bass region and boom. the ONLY real drawback with small speakers is that they can't do bass, but that's what subs are for. for the dollar, a decent sub/sat system will sound better than a similarly priced larger full range pair usually. buy small 2 way speakers, then, you can always add a subwoofer when you want a bigger sound and when your budget allows. heck, many 6 1/2" two ways are fine without subs to my ears, but i'm not a bass freak. smaller woofers are better for your midrange and imaging though. go smaller if you're planning on subbing and larger if you're looking for a permanent system. i'd recommend 4 1/2" - 5 1/4" woofers for better midrange and plan on buying a sub eventually. if possible, try to audition some speakers if you can as one particular model might have a sound that's more to your taste. eg. my missions are too bright, especially with my onkyo reciever, but they have super fast detailed treble that my superzeros can't match. still, i prefer the zeros as their cabinets doesn't echo when i knock on them and their midrange is so much more clear and relaxed that it's easier to listen to longer without fatigue. the missions have become my PC speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 181 Registered: Mar-04 | p.s. a seperate subwoofer/satellite system will give you more control over tuning the bass precisely to your room. you can't tune the bass on most full range speakers, but you can adjust both volume level AND how high your woofers frequency range goes. the rule of thumb for woofer accuracy is to tweak it until you don't actually hear it on it's own, but you can also crank it up if you have to have more too. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 186 Registered: Mar-04 | i just reread my stereophile recommended components list. the Polk RT4i speakers i mentioned were only rated class D, while the $330 Epos ELS-3s were rated class C ahead of speakers 3 or more times their price. there REALLY should be a magazine dedicated JUST to affordable equipment. virtually EVERYTHING that stereophile reviews costs $2000 or more! the under $500 range is where the REAL action is at as far as i'm concerned. there are alot of speakers there that sound pretty darned good. i like my $200 super zeros more than $1000 B&Ws even if their tweeters are awesome. my puppies image better and have tighter bass (and less of it too LOL) i LUST after $500 pr. magnepan MMGs myself. those planar speakers sound so unspeaker like it's amazing. they're lightning fast and sound extremely realistic on vocals. |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 27 Registered: Jul-05 | Stu & Budget Minded, Thanks for the suggestions. I borrowed a pair of my roommates Bose 301 Series III speakers (they were sitting unused, he want to sell them). Definately a BIG step up from those Teacs I own (but thats not saying much as the Teacs are really poor speakers). Bear with me, I'm a novice at using audio terminology. The speakers handle louder volume, I can hear many details I couldn't hear with the Teacs, more illusion and soundstage. However, something is missing. Somehow the music doesn't really pull together as a unified sound...and the higher ranges sound tinny and shrill....they leave the rest of the sounds and are compartmentalized and too harsh for pleasant listening. Much better base then the Teacs though. There's distortion, I'm listening now to Ravi Shankar's Ustado Alla Rakha the sitar notes become distorted at moderate/high volume and are piercing, too intense. Likewise with Janis Japlin's voice from Summertime on Cheap Thrills as does Maria Callas on Carmen...the music is shrill as well (I need to be able to discern the equipment from the recording quality, that'll come in time). Frank Zappa's Nine Types of Industrial Pollution from Uncle Meat & Comanche by the Revels sounds better. Perhaps the the Bose are not perfectly setup in my room, they have tweeters on the side and a woofer in front of the cabinet. In any case, I'd like a smoother integration and musicality of the overall sound, better base, and more pleasing high frequencies. I do not think these speakers are for me. Well, at least I have something to compare to. I'll have to find the time now to do some critical listening at the audio stores in town and try to get a feel for the differences in the speakers you guys have recommended. So, if I want the base, it's better to select a 2-way with a smaller woofer that offers better midrange (at the expense of base) and add a subwoofer to the system? What does a used sub in this price range go for? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1585 Registered: Mar-05 | Lovegasoline, With your budget constraints this is where I'd look: Athena AS-B2 bookshelf speakers, $150/pair from audioadvisor.com (usually $250/pair) Panasonic SA-XR55 pure digital receiver, $240 shipped from Amazon.com --- knownn for very good 2-channel sound, and expandable to 7 channels later on if you decide to do HT. There is a lengthy thread on this little wonder at avsforum.com you might want to read through. Marantz CC-4300 refurb with 1-year Marantz warranty, $129 from accessories4less.com --- marvelous little thing, sounded equal or better than some $500 players I auditioned. The Marantz CD player will be a significant upgrade from your Phillips multiplayer, and the Panny sa-xr55 will provide both clarity and power far beyond that of analog receivers anywhere near its price range. If you crave extra bass, you can add a Dayton 12" sub for about $150 shipped from partsexpress.com which will take off some of the load from the Athenas (which already deliver some decent bass for their size) especially for movies. I used to believe that speakers were far and away the most important part of the system but my own experiences recently have changed that, I now believe that decent electronics are of at least equal importance. Lemme tell you, if you were impressed by the Bose 301s you ain't heard NOTHIN' yet! :-) |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 222 Registered: Mar-04 | i've NEVER been a fan of gimmicky bose speakers. when i bought my first REAL pair of speakers (6 1/2" JBL 2 ways) they totally blew EVERY bose speaker the store sold away regardless of price for sheer lack of coloration. the smaller 5 1/4" JBL two ways were even more revealing in the midrange and imaged better, but not knowing when i'd upgrade, i went with the larger pair for their deeper bass. i disagree with the electronics are = comment. yes... they DO make a difference. even cables do, but speakers vary WAY more in sound than electronics. my NHT and mission speakers sound way more different from each other than any amp/CD equipment i've put in front of them. i'd much rather put the cheapest electronics behind a great pair of speakers than the best electronics in the world behind a crappy sounding speaker any day. $100,000 worth of gear can't make speakers with lousy frequency response and cheap flimsy cabinets ever sound good. ideally, yes, you want quality all around. as much as i see people ragging on "cheap onkyo or surround recievers", my $250 5 channel onkyo sounded much better than my overly polite 2 channel "high end" NAD with my super zeros. the speakers still sound more different than the recievers. electronics will only sound about 5% different on a really bad day, while speakers will easily sound 20% different in so many areas: cabinet resonances high frequency extension bass extension imaging crossover distortions speed and so on. i'd say get the best speakers you can afford first, then build up the rest of your system 1 piece at a time starting with the CD player and ending with cables. electronics do matter, but the differences are slight. when i 1st auditioned sony, JVC, pioneer, yamaha and harmon kardon recievers side by side with flat EQs at the same volume level in a store. the differences between one and the next were BARELY audible. each model had slightly clearer treble than the next one in the order i listed them, but the harmon kardon did not sound $100 better than the yamaha which did sound $40 better than the sony. the differences were VERY subtle. there was a much GREATER difference in just the midrange speed and imaging in the two JBL speakers i had considered. they both had the same exact tweeter too. if you look at speakers, there frequency response is usually measured at +- 3dB, but often as high as +- 5 dB (including expensive speakers) and RARELY measured as low as +- 1dB while electronics are hardly EVER measured (except cassette decks and phono cartridges) above +- 0.5dB because electronics are more alike and less fussy. you harly EVER see a distortion spec of over 1% on equipment (except for tube amps) but many $1000+ speakers have bass distortion of up to 20%. good equipment (and matching) will only let you get the most out of your speakers. you won't be able to hear the differences in gear with really crappy speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1588 Registered: Mar-05 | It's all about the law of diminishing returns and smart shopping. I wouldn't put $800/pair speakers with a $150 receiver, and I wouldn't put an $800 receiver with a $150/pair speakers. I would however put a wisely chosen $250/pair speakers (how much the Athena B2s normally cost) together with a $250 receiver that's favorably compared to a $1500 receiver (the Panny sa-xr55 and HK 7300, respectively). The differences in receivers IMO are much slighter if your uses are mainly HT. For music though I could easily hear a difference when moving up from an Onkyo 601 to a Marantz 5400, and an even bigger difference when I went to NAD separates. With the exception of the refurb HK receivers from Harman Audio, if I had only $500 to spend the only HT receiver I'd look at would be these pure digitals and MAYBE the Pioneer 1015. Otherwise I'd just get the NAD 320bee for $400. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1979 Registered: Jan-05 | verbage, anyone?? |
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Bronze Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 31 Registered: May-05 | Hmm didn't take the time to read all of that, but I am using a borrowed pair of Polk audio R-15's which are a temp trade for my non shielded Missions. For reasonable listening leves paired with a sub they are pretty acceptable. And they are CHEAP. Being Canadian, I deal with a lot of Canadian brands, and the ones that I have good things to say about are PSB, Paradigm, and Energy off the top off my head. All have budget priced speakers worth a listen. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 235 Registered: Mar-04 | definately... those three candian brands are well respected in the bang for the buck market... must be the favorable exchange rate. LOL the "law of diminishing returns" doesn't apply to speakers in the same proportion that it does to speakers. $1000 speakers usually sound clearly better than $200 ones. a $1000 reciever isn't going to sound dramatically better than a $200 one for the same volume level. everything in the chain contributes to your sound, but speakers will ALWAYS vary the most in sound quality. as the last link in the chain... it also gets the "final vote" on sound quality. i'd rather listen to $2000 speakers on my not too shabby yamaha 20 watt boombox amp with a $40 DVD player than $50,000 worth of "the worlds best" halcro amps and a $20,000 mark levinson CD player through said boombox's cheesy speakers ANY DAY. that boombox amp doesn't sound dramatically worse than my $55wpc reciever except in the max volume area. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1601 Registered: Mar-05 | > $1000 speakers usually sound clearly better than $200 ones. Not if they're being driven by a $200 receiver. > a $1000 reciever isn't going to sound dramatically better than a $200 one for the same volume level. All depends on which $1000 receiver and which $200 receiver you're comparing. A Yamaha RXV-2500 versus a Panny sa-xr55, I'd agree with you. A NAD T763 vs. a Sony STRDE598 is a different matter. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1276 Registered: Feb-04 | Not if they're being driven by a $200 receiver. I disagree. They will sound different regardless. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 32 Registered: May-05 | I agree with budget minded's post. Pound for pound, better speakers are the best bang for the buck. They will absolutely make the most dramatic system improvement within reasonable listening levels, *again* with a least bare minimum of reasonable amplification. A $200 rceiver is bare minumum, a ghetto blaster...haha well now that's pushing it. |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 30 Registered: Jul-05 | Edster: Appreciate the component recommendations. However, at this stage in my buy-in, I need to concentrate on getting these Teac speakers replaced with something respectable to the ears. I also need a tuner, and better headphones. So for this round, I have to hold off on amp/CDP/turntable upgrades. Besides, I just got the YAMAHA int. amp so I do not yet really know its limitations until they are made known by better components in the chain. Several months down the road, more knowledge, dissatisfaction with the sound, more $$, and I'll start upgrading the amp/CPD/turntable. I'm just moving up from boombox now. "If you crave extra bass, you can add a Dayton 12" sub for about $150 shipped from partsexpress.com which will take off some of the load from the Athenas (which already deliver some decent bass for their size) especially for movies. " This bass issue is still bewildering me and tugging at me. Again, I listen to rock as the lion's share of music, and mostly music (the movies that really matter to me sound-wise are concert DVDs, otherwise, I don't care that much about movie sound quality to make my choices around it). What do I want is bass. I do not want to have speakers that will give me polite sounds but with no real omph...and I'll need some of that omph for rock. I do live in an apartment so most of the time the listening levels will be modest, but I do crank it up occasionally think I have many great recommendations to pursue, but will the bookshelves give me what I want? Or, will I absolutely need a subwoofer in tandem OR go with a bigger speaker? "Lemme tell you, if you were impressed by the Bose 301s you ain't heard NOTHIN' yet! :-)" :-) :-) :-) !!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 967 Registered: May-05 |  I'll add to this by saying, Do an A&B testing of loudspeakers, old hat but still the results of the final outcome are conclusive evidence, proof that one is different than the other, in terms of sensitivity frequency response power handling, colourization of the sound etc, etc, etc.... As well the pursuit for truth, within the loudspeaker capability and overall performance... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1619 Registered: Mar-05 | Tuner: get a used NAD, should go for $100 or less on eBay. Bass: well with a $200-300 budget for both speakers and sub you will have to accept major compromises to say the least. Given your musical tastes I'd recommend looking at the JBL e80 floorstanders and up, whatever fits into your budget. They'll deliver decent bass though you'll give up accuracy in the mids and highs, but you should be ok with them. http://www.electronics-expo.com/product.jsp?x=E80&zipz=11001 The thing is, big floorstanders like these need lots of clean power to make them really sound good. Depending on the performance of the Yammie amp, you might be better off going with the Athena B2s for $150/pair plus the Dayton 12" for $150 if you want really thunderous bass (you won't get really accurate tight musical bass at this pricepoint). |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 31 Registered: Jul-05 | Guys, what about USED speakers??! That is what I was really planning on. Any suggestions that will get me closer to the sound I'm after used for $200-$300? Regarding the amp/speaker conflict: I appreciate the point of matching components of similar abilities. I cant' make an accurate assessment of my amp, I do not possess the listening experience/components yet. It's mid 1980's vintage, apparently retailed for about $400-500 new, and from what Jan writes, the Int. Amp was from a transitional Yamaha vintage, when they were undergoing their change from a specialty manufacturer to a mass-fi manufacturer...still a specialty store amp, not as refined in quality as the 70's Yamaha product & sound, and not as poorly rendered as the current mass-fi Yamaha product. In any case, it's what I have to work with for now, and I want to match it with reasonable priced speakers. Upgrades will come in 2006 when I identify weaknesses and strengthen my wallet. Thanks to everyone for their input. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 33 Registered: May-05 | I say get the sub for sure. I will never be without the range of tunability that a sub offers. Example: moderate listening levels where you still want solid bass. It also allows you to run bass EQ's/tone controls flat (or even better - bypassed), which prevents adding any extra undue distortion to the mix. |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 32 Registered: Jul-05 | I'm curious, if buying a standard sub, does one then need to use a sperate amp to run the sub? I have a vintage 1985 Yamaha integrated amp, 2 sets of speaker inputs (A & B) that's it. The 'powered' subs, they include the cost of an amp built into the sub, is that corrrect? |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3482 Registered: Dec-03 | yes a powered is exactly that...powered with its own amp. |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 33 Registered: Jul-05 | A standard sub cannot be run off of an amp such as mine that already has 2 speakers connected? A Powered sub: you are generally getting a super cheap amp integrated to the sub? For those that go with a subwoofer on a budget, is it better to get a seperate older used amp (of higher quality than the amp integrated into powered subs) to run a unpowered sub? If going this direction (seperate used amp, + sub) what else is needed to integrate it to the main amp/speaker system? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 206 Registered: Jul-05 | Powered subs typically come with decent amps built in; although the cheaper you go obviously the lesser the power output will be. On another note, I can't really think of many passive subs/external amps in your price range. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 207 Registered: Jul-05 | Given your relatively low budget and equipment, and you're in the general area of their retail stores, I'll suggest Cambridge Soundworks. Their Model Six speaker retails for about 150. You can get their B-stock for about 100 even. It'll trash anything Bose makes for sure; and if you add some internal bracing + damping material, you'll have a speaker that will IMO go head to head with much more expensive models. This will also free up some money for a respectable sub. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 262 Registered: Mar-04 | thanks for "being my witness" frosty. LOL i've NEVER said that amps, preamps, D/A converters even cables don't make a difference. they do, but the differences between a decent entry level reciever and a "high end" one are SLIGHT. we're talking FRACTIONS of a percent. look at any electronic devices specs... NO reputable device ever breaks the 1% THD spec EVER!!! heck... i don't remember the last time i've even seen one break 0.1%! there's almost ALWAYS another 0 after the decomal point! the differences in speakers are FAR from subtle in so many areas. bass extension treble extension speed imaging and freedom from resonances off the top of my head. electronic equipment doesn't have resonances. it's all pretty darn close in speed and so on. it definately matters, but junk electronics will ALWAYS sound better on great speakers than the best equipment in the world on junk speakers. NO EQUIPMENT EVER MADE will ever make these horrible resonant mission M71s i'm using on my PC ever sound as good as my virtually distortion free superzeros even if they'll never have the treble speed and extension and bass extension of the missions. the missions will NEVER have the effortless relaxed midrange of the NHTs EVER. the comparison isn't even close. there are too many ways that these similarly sized and priced speakers sound DRAMATICALLY more different than ANY electronics. unplug the mission ports, and the differences are astronimical. unless an electronic device is sub boombox grade, the difference between it and the best ever will only be 1% or less. audible? yes. dramatic? no way! one size larger (otherwise identical) JBL speaker would be MUCH easier to tell by ear than a sony/jvc/pioneer/yamaha/harmon kardon reciever side by side. the differences between those 5 devices was so subtle that at times... could BARELY be heard. BARELY. the difference between two RELATED JBLs was EASY to spot. that's even with identical drivers and cabinet styles (ported). NO other speakers in the store (at least 4 brands) sounded anything like the JBLs. i DEFY you to find two under $1000 speakers that sound so similar that someone couldn't EASILY pick them blindfolded. the WILDLY different frequency responses alone (unless they use the exact same drivers) would easily give them away. like i said (to deaf ears... pun intended) my "cheap" boombox amp sounds way more like my reciever than ANY of my 3 different small 2 way speakers. (my radio shack aluminum box speakers have a sound WAY out of the league of my "real" speakers, they might look similar to my NHTs but they SURE don't sound it). NONE of them sounded anything like the larger JBLs i sold either. no matter what gear you played any of these 4 speakers on... i'd bet $100 that i could guess correctly EVERY TIME blindfolded. that's why you often hear speakers described as being "voiced" and NEVER hear electronics described that way. you'd NEVER get me to EVER accept crappy cheap speakers no matter how good the electronics driving them are. great speakers on mediocre electronics can still be pretty good though. they just won't reach their FULL Nth potentioal. if i still had that $40 poloroid DVD player that messed my TV screen up and played it through my boombox amp with my NHTs, i could very easily live with the combo. put those crappy missions in my home system... and i'll have a headache in just 20 minutes. if you think speakers sound the same or even VAGUELY similar... you must have tin ears. even with the exact same drivers and crossover, you could dramatically change the sound of the speakers in many ways... size of cabinet... resonances, imaging and bass etension or ported or sealed?... bass quality/quantity just those TWO variables would be way more audible than 0.01% worth of electronics variation. eh... forget it. there's no point arguing with someone who doesn't want to hear you. i know what my EXPERIENCES have borne. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1626 Registered: Mar-05 | > A Powered sub: you are generally getting a super cheap amp integrated to the sub? Exactly, and it's about a million times more cost effective than buying a passive sub and a dedicated amp for the sub. People who do so generally have several zeros behind their audio budgets than you and I do. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2102 Registered: Jan-05 | heck, if you buy cheap sub, and you'll end up with exactly that. If you buy a quality sub, you'll have all the clean power you need. Many subs will have 500-1000rms watt amps included, and will outperform any separates not costing a small fortune. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5319 Registered: May-04 | Budget - Your last post sounds like you are channeling Paul. Very inexorable in things where a little more conceit would better serve the reader. "i know what my EXPERIENCES have borne." Really? And you've NEVER heard of voicing an amplifier, huh? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2109 Registered: Jan-05 | Lucky for me I didnt read his bloviating rant. I'd hate to expose myself to such nonsense......LOL |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 759 Registered: Jun-05 | So I guess he thinks preamps dont make a big sound difference.I would rather any day to have cheaper speakers with more expensive electronics rather than the other way around.Man if he thinks like that he has deffinately has a long way to go in this hobby.Try putting thoses beloved Maggies that you love so much on the end of some cheap gear and you will more dissapointed with them than any cheap speaker you can think of. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5329 Registered: May-04 | " bloviating " What article did you copy and paste that word from, Paul? |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 186 Registered: Apr-05 | That word, no doubt, was borrowed from Bill O'Reilly. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2116 Registered: Jan-05 | Unless you hide yourself inside a protective bubble shielding yourself from all other opinions contradictory your own, I think you already know the answer. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5333 Registered: May-04 | Paul, the answer to that statement is waaaay too easy. |
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