Bookshelfs - $400 a pair - too many choices! - OVERWHELMED!
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 24 Registered: Jun-05 | Is there any way to play process of elimination when every one of my speaker considerations have excellent reviews? Especially when it is not possible for me to listen to each one due to lack of decent shops in the area? I want to use the speakers that I buy for music AND movies. I will, eventually, be buying a subwoofer. Which makes me wonder, would it be overkill to buy the NHT SB3's if they only improve on the SB2's on the low end of the frequency range and I'll have a sub to pick up that slack? Should I try and choose speakers that are more generous at the other end of the frequency range, even though they all go up to and beyond 20kHz, and that is as far as the human ear can hear anyway? Are the NHT speakers as good at reproducing music since they are technically in their home theater line? Are the SB3's that much better than the SB2'S? The Paradigm Mini Monitors over the Titans? The Axiom m22ti's over the m3ti's? Should I avoid the incredible Monitor Audio Bronze B2's and the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1's because of their 6 Ohm impedence if I am not going to spend a fortune on a receiver? Who wants to play a game called "rank the speaker"? I really need to eliminate some of these and purchase speakers and move on to the next thing! Now Hear This! SB-2 -- 51Hz to 22kHz 86db 150 Watts Now Hear This! SB-3 -- 39Hz- 22kHz 175 Watts 86db??? Paradigm Titan -- 60Hz to 20kHz 86 db 100 Watts Paradigm Mini Monitor 56Hz to 20kHz 87 db 100 Watts Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 - 69Hz to 20kHz 89db 200 Watts Axiom M3ti -- 60 to 22kHz 88 db 175 Watts Axiom M22ti -- 60Hz to 22kHz 89db 200 Watts Energy C-3 -- 46Hz to 23kHz 89db 125 Watts Monitor Audio Bronze B2 42Hz to 22kHz 90dB 100 Watts *6 Ohms* Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 50Hz to 24kHz 86db *6 Ohms* |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 708 Registered: Dec-03 | One thing to remember that will help you is that Ascend and Axiom are selling direct - eliminating the middle man, thus offering more quality for the buck. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | If I had to choose between only those models, id probably pick the Energy's or Ascends. Almost all of those use metal tweeters, and in a budget speaker this can be a disaster ( not always as ive heard metal tweeters I like). The Ascend's will have the most "accurate" and detailed sound, but this also makes them less tolerable of lesser equipment. Paired with my old Onkyo reciever they were extremely grainy and bright. Replaced the reciever with a Cambrdige integrated amp and all of a sudden the speakers sounded a million times better. If you can spend about $500.00 than id suggest you try the Audio Note AX-Two. These use a silk tweeter and are pretty efficent. Never heard them myself but have only heard good things about them. In the end I wouldnt buy anything without hearing them in your home for at least a few weeks. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1049 Registered: Feb-05 | The Paradigm Mini Monitor is far better than the Titan. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 25 Registered: Jun-05 | "One thing to remember that will help you is that Ascend and Axiom are selling direct - eliminating the middle man, thus offering more quality for the buck" OR, are they comparable speakers to all the rest and just pocketing the difference that the middleman would get? |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 26 Registered: Jun-05 | "The Paradigm Mini Monitor is far better than the Titan" You're probably right. What other speakers in my list are far better than others in my list?  |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1120 Registered: Mar-05 | Timothy, > OR, are they comparable speakers to all the rest and just pocketing the difference that the middleman would get? Funny, that is EXACTLY the question I was asking around several different audio forums when I was looking into the Ascends myself. Then a guy on the avsforum.com PM'ed me and offered to let me come listen to them because I had said that I was in his area...the rest is history. Had I known about it then, I would've gone directly to the Ascend user's forum and asked if there were any Ascend owners in my area who'd let me come listen. Oh well, live and learn. However as I have recounted on several different threads on this forum, after I received my Ascends I did take them in to my local audio dealer where I had bought my Marantz receiver, and put them up against their stock of Klipsch, Monitor Audio, NHT, PSB, and Triangle speakers. Result? To my ears at least, nothing within the same ballpark could touch them, not until I got to about double their price. (These were Ascend 340s not 170s, which go for $548/pair.) Obviously those were just 5 speaker brands but since they are not exactly no-names and that store had pretty competitive pricing, I was quite satisfied with the results especially since the same salesguy had been bragging to me two weeks earlier that he had convinced one of his customers to ship back an Axiom speaker package after they'd done the same A/B comparison. With the Ascends even he had to admit they were an amazing value for the money. Since you are looking at the smaller and lighter CBM-170s, I'd suggest you do the same thing I did if you ever want to be sure about how good they are. The nice thing about these Internet-direct companies is that you can always ship back the speakers if you don't like them within 30 days and pay just for return shipping---around $15 or $20 for the Ascends, which is a lot less than most shops' restocking fees. The only places I've ever heard which will provide refunds without restock fees are big-box chains like Best Buy, but they have poor selection and usually high prices anyhow. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1121 Registered: Mar-05 | Timothy, the other issues I'd consider in your decision: 1. how big is your listening room? 2. what's your receiver/amp? 3. how loud do you like it? 4. what's your music vs. HT usage %? 5. what type of music? I chose the Ascends because I'm a 80% music listener, and the music I listen to (jazz, classical, vocal-dominated rock/folk) demand great accuracy and naturalness in the midrange and treble, which the Ascends are famous for---they were expressedly designed to be used with a subwoofer (especially the 170s) so they don't even attempt to deliver low-end bass which would compromise their mids and highs. If I were primarily into rock/rap/pop and HT I might've saved myself some money with a pair of JBLs and been equally happy. Or went with the Monitor Audio B2 which has great bass but sloppy highs and muffled mids...that's the usual trade-off in this price range if you want good bass. So rather than focus on the speakers only, I'd start by focusing on YOUR application and tastes/needs. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 283 Registered: Apr-04 | Edster......why didn't you explain your point this way before to us? You have used the same definition of what you are trying to say but in a much nicer and logical terminology! You did not insult anyone's gear, swear or threaten psychological services in any of your sentences! You even said that after comparing them to the 5 brand names you mentioned, they were most pleasing to your ears afterall! Everything in your last two posts was very well worded. I am pleased to hear this. I suppose there is hope for us to come to terms afterall! Maybe I will buy you a beer. Just not sure where Abubala, Ababala is! |
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Anonymous | Tim, I will take the AE evo1 than the speakers you mentioned.I auditioned some of those speakers including MAB2, Paradigm Mini,Titan, NHT Sb3,Wharfadale 8.1(not 9.1) and I bought the AE for only US$189 from Ebay. I listened to it from the dealer but bought from ebay to save some money.They have a rating 4.89 with 70 reviews on audioreview and to me its sound is comparable to Dyns Audience40. I also agree with Somed00d you can try the audio note ax two. Sorry I did not hear the ascends and energy, |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1131 Registered: Mar-05 | Oh my God I can't even begin to describe how fulfilled I finally am now that Danman has officially APPROVED of the way I express myself! In fact I think I'll print out your post, frame it and hang it on my wall...it'll be shrine of Danman, Lord of Audio Forum Linguistics! You'll note Danman that Timothy never brought up Wharfedales as some shining paragon of budget speakers. Had he did, and ragged on Athenas or any other decent budget speakers as a means of comparison, then you bet I'd savage the Wharfedales just as I did in reply to Tawaun's rabid postings. In all honesty, it's difficult to communicate with you because you are such an appallingly poor reader with a very selective memory and a bad habit of projecting your own paranoias and insecurities onto other people. Add to this your apparent ambitions to appoint yourself Forum Censor only because your precious Wharfedales were called "crap," and it's difficult NOT to take many whacks at you...let's just say you offer a very large and slow-moving target. Other than the above, you are always welcome to buy me a beer. ; ) |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 27 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks a lot for the information Ed! You seem very pleased with your CBM-340's - would you say that you would be almost as pleased with the CBM-170's - do you think they are a significant drop-off or a minor one? 1. how big is your listening room? small to average 2. what's your receiver/amp? still shopping for one - working on the speakers first - but I probably will not exceed $500 or $600 for a 6.1 receiver...so 4 or 6 Ohm speakers may not be the way to go? Or speakers with low efficiencies? 3. how loud do you like it? I love it loud but not ridiculously loud! 4. what's your music vs. HT usage %? 66.66% music, 33.33% movies! 5. what type of music? I love all kinds of music - particularly: classical...Tchaikovsky Ballet Suites / Mozart Symphonies 25, 29 and 40 / Beethoven's Ninth (wanna hear "Ode to Joy" really come alive!) 80's New Wave / Pop...The Smiths, The Cure, New Order, Depeche Mode and U2, and, believe it or not, a lot of "electronic" / House music. I love music with a lot of different instruments and a broad range of frequencies. I DON'T want my speakers to "rock" per se, I want them to make the music COME ALIVE! I listen to music with a lot of gorgeous vocals and instruments and I want to hear EVERYTHING! I love songs like: Peter Gabriel - In Your Eyes Don Henley - Boys Of Summer U2 - All I Want Is You Corey Hart - Never Surrender Mr. Mister - Broken Wings Hope this helps more!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 32 Registered: Jun-05 | Timothy.. I don't have the experience with the Ascends to give you a complete answer, but based on what you just wrote, I think you would love the Energy C3s. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1135 Registered: Mar-05 | Timothy, Actually I would've bought the 170s if I didn't have a 6000 cubic foot nightmare of a listening room to contend with, so I needed the 340s' extra woofer and wide-dispersion tweeter. You sound like you'd be fine with the 170s as long as you get a quality sub. For $500-600 I'd look at Harman Audio on eBay, you should be able to get an HK 430, 525 or maybe even a 630 for that price. These are refurbs but with full original HK warranty. If you prefer brand-new, I'd look at the Marantz 5500 for $600 shipped at hifi.com or if you're really lucky you might find a Marantz 8400 in that price range on ubid.com also with full warranty. Your musical tastes would be well suited for the Ascend 170s since these are mostly vocal-dominated bands. The only caveat about the 170s is that due to their extremely flat frequency response, they will reveal bad recordings mercilessly---my old Beatles CDs for example sound horrible while similar types of vocal/guitar rock recorded during the 80s-90s and later sound great. One other question I forgot to ask: what type of MOVIES do you watch usually? If you do mainly a lot of dramas and comedies as opposed to wham-bam action flicks, you might be perfectly happy with a 2.1 or 3.l setup instead of a 5.1 or 6.1 setup, that way you can concentrate your funds into getting the best 2-channel gear you can afford which will really maximimze your music enjoyment. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 118 Registered: Jun-05 | See,Edster Danman tried to end you guys long standing everyday fued,but as usual you couldn't refraim from your little ego comments and im the one with rabid postings.But im finally starting to understand you,its a shame you just cant help it,your just a gold medalist in the pr..k department,Edster take abow you've more than earned it. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 287 Registered: Apr-04 | AWWWWWW he can't help it! I thought I was being nice and now he goes and hurts my feelings! I was sure that I made the first move to mend our torrid ways but he once again persisted in dragging out the use of "my stuff is so much better than everyone elses" versions of the same story! I don't know about that beer anymore but I still think you are pretty cool all things considered! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 206 Registered: Jul-04 | Edster wrote: "However as I have recounted on several different threads on this forum, after I received my Ascends I did take them in to my local audio dealer where I had bought my Marantz receiver, and put them up against their stock of Klipsch, Monitor Audio, NHT, PSB, and Triangle speakers. Result? To my ears at least, nothing within the same ballpark could touch them, not until I got to about double their price. (These were Ascend 340s not 170s, which go for $548/pair.)" Edster how did the 340s compare to the NHT SB3s? DO you have any take on how the 170s would compare to the SB-3s? This is probably my next comparison. There is an audio shop that carries NHT about 45 minutes away. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Cousin_itPost Number: 12 Registered: May-05 | These look like something worth trying: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/alegrialing.htm With my Ohms, the xover is about at the same frequency, and the smoothness that results can only be found on VERY expensive speakers. Once you hear it you're hooked, and speakers with a xover in the 1-2k range will forever sound different, after the "quasi-full-range" experience. I haven't heard these speakers, but I would guess that they probably impress some listeners here. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 211 Registered: Jul-04 | Axiom M22s are mor detailed and more favored by Axiom board posters than the M3s, but I think they are both good. Yeah, forget the Titan if you can get the mini-monitor, but I am not sure the minimonitor is the best of these options (in my spotty auditioning experience). Seems that the Energy c3 and the NHT sb-3 give you more bass - not needed if you get a good sub. Ascends are more life like than the M22s I think - unless you like the high frequency detail. So, if you want my opinion as an Axiom owner - scratch both the Axioms of your list. But they are still both very good. I don't know Wharfedale and Monitor Audio. That leaves the NHT SB-2 and Ascend 170s. I wonder if there are some comparisons of those two speakers? I heard NHT super ones and was not impressed - boxy echoing sound. But I think the SB-2 is a different kettle of fish. Of course I own the Ascends so I think they are good. Just my two cents. You obviously need more than a dollar here to decide, but maybe that is some help. Another idea - the lowest costing speaker of whatever finalists you come up with may sound the best - cause then you can buy a better receiver to power them. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 212 Registered: Jul-04 | hmmm - after looking at the NHT website I remember now that I went looking for the Super ones but they were replaced by the SB-2. So, I think I did listen to the SB2 and the SB-1. I thought both were to boxy (poor damping of echoes) sounding by comparison to some smaller totems they had there. Scratch the NHT of the list. Good speaker but there are better. Now I know why some people refuse to give advice - your ear may be very different! You may hear the SB-2 one day and wonder what I was smoking that I recommended Ascends. Anyway, if you want my 1 cent (it is getting less and less worthless as I go along) take either the ascend 170s or the Axiom M22s. Another question - what if you don't like whatever you get? Can one return the Paradigms or NHT or whatever for just shipping costs? If you make a mistake on the Axioms or Ascends I believe it is just shipping costs to return them. In your case, maybe that is better. If anyone disagrees with me that has spent more time listening to the speakers I recommended against - listen to them. My auditioning was mostly brief and long ago. Except for the ones I owned (Axiom M22, M3, Ascend 170, Paradigm Titan) and the Paradigm mini monitors which were two days ago, but still brief. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 213 Registered: Jul-04 | oops - I meant more and more worthless. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 28 Registered: Jun-05 | It's too bad that Stereophile has not done more bookshelf speaker reviews. What other professional review sources are out there? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 214 Registered: Jul-04 | You can search at the top (ecoustics) and find professional and other reviews on most speakers from a variety of sources. But you probably already know that. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1148 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, > But im finally starting to understand you,its a shame you just cant help it,your just a gold medalist in the pr..k department,Edster take abow you've more than earned it. well I'm really happy for you Tawaun, that you finally now THINK you understand SOMEthing...quite frankly I was beginning to think that you were just mentally retarded. How about going back and finishing elementary school, I'm sure they'd be very happy to have you, you could have show and tell every day about some different audio equipment, that would spare you the trouble of TYPING (which I must say, you finally seem to have mastered, kinda sorta relative to your initial garbled postings). LOL dadgummit Tawaun, I should start paying you for making me laugh my @ss off so much! David Letterman's no match for you, homes. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1149 Registered: Mar-05 | Don, about the NHT SB3s vs. the Ascend 340s: the NHTs wiped the floor with the Ascends in the bass department, the Ascends demolished the NHTs in the mids and highs. Very similar story with everything else I auditioned in the store under $1500/pair though sometimes the margins were closer on some things and wider on others. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 160 Registered: Jun-05 | And he is still being a crybaby............... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1153 Registered: Mar-05 | so does that mean that you're NOT mentally retarded after all, Tawaun baby? yuk-yuk-yuk! LOL |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 164 Registered: Jun-05 | No,think that would be you considering you still have your cd player from the 5th grade.Edster is it a 5 disc changer or a magazine "boy you are a joke " |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 151 Registered: May-05 | T and Ed, Holy smokes, it is getting hot in here or is that your hand in my pocket? Let's chill and talk speakers, receivers, opinions, etc. and lay off the stupid, imbecilic, juvenile, name calling. By the way, the rest of my Ascends arrive on Thursday so I'll have to put it all together and report further, then. So, Tim, I can't compare to the Axioms or much else, but, they compare favorably to the Boston Acoustic VR line, the Klipsch upscale bookshelves, Phase Technology and every JBL I could get in poodunk, Spokane, the backwater of hi-fi. (Actually, I really love it here just not when it comes to hi-fi choices. Poodunk is a term of endearment.) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1159 Registered: Mar-05 | geez Tawaun, is that ALL you are...your audio equipment? That's all you have to make yourself feel good about yourself, and attempt to make others feel bad about themselves because you assume that they're equally hollow human beings just like you with the same hollow value system? That's a truly sad statement about who you are and what you stand for in life, Tawaun. Do you really want to be such a hollow individual? Doesn't living such an empty life bother you? How sad! Have you ever spoken to your spiritual advisor about this sad state of affairs? Do you even have a spiritual advisor? Do you even pray? I think I'll include you in my prayers tonight, Tawaun. Here goes: "Dear Lord, please help Tauwaun A. Williams, otherwise known as T_Bomb25...yeah, THAT one...get a brain, a personality, and a life! I know it's a tall order O Lord, but if you could part the Red Sea and all that jive, I'm confident you'll manage to swing this one too." |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1160 Registered: Mar-05 | David, you think it's hot in here? Nawwww...man, I'm having a ball! This Tawaun dude is the best entertainment to roll in town since the Ringling Brothers...God bless the childe! Hopefully he's enjoying himself too though most indicators would suggest otherwise, poor thing. woop, woop, woop! ROTFL |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 156 Registered: May-05 | Edster, I know you're having fun. I've come to know and appreciate your sarcasm. BUT, the continual bombs dropping are taking most of these strings way off target so it's not very entertaining reading for the rest of us. So, T likes his Wharfdales, SO WHAT, let him. I know you like your Ascends, and frankly I'm liking them more and more each day. BUT, it's only audio equipment, right. Wait a second, I think that was your point, OOPs. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 167 Registered: Jun-05 | Just having a little fun David, ok lets help this guy choose a speaker.Edster stop stalking me! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1164 Registered: Mar-05 | Good point David, I was just replying to Tawaun's usual unprovoked instigations...see his Monday, July 04, 2005 - 02:16 am posting? And the poor thing accuses ME of stalking HIM, hah! OK Tawaun, I see you've just said Uncle so I'll stop walloping you, long as you behave... |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 158 Registered: May-05 | As long as you guys are having fun, it's OK with me, T-Man but it wasn't sounding so fun. However, I'd like to provide Tim a solution. I'd go with the Paradigms, the Energys or the Ascends. (Sorry, I know nothing about the Wharfdales so please discuss with T-Man.) Unfortunately, you have to have an understanding audio store to let you bring in the Ascends and do A/Bs with the other two. The other option is, pick which of the two you like best, bring it home on a trial basis on the VISA and order the Ascends. Take back or mail back the loser. OR, if you're really brave, be very nice to Jan and he'll tell you about NSM Audio, do I have that right, Jan? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 172 Registered: Jun-05 | Ill never say uncle.But what speakers can he go audition? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 223 Registered: Jul-04 | Just for the record, I have learned a lot of audio from both Edster and Tawaun. When they are "on topic" there isn't much I disagree with. Thanks for the info, guys. Tawaun - Wharfedales vs. Totem vs. that other brand you told us about (I forgot the name): are there comparable models? Which would you choose in a $400 or less bookshelf? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 224 Registered: Jul-04 | Wharfedales vs. Totem vs. Usher - under $400 and bookshelf. Oh, I think whoever suggested buying two different sets or even three has the right idea. Even after you buy speakers you are going to still be wondering if you got what you want - like I am. Better to pay shipping on the pair you don't like and know, than to save $30? and not know. When you find the pair you like - get four more. Is that feasible, TImothy? DO you live in some place where shipping costs more than that? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 249 Registered: Dec-03 | Why not try mine? http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/ |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 177 Registered: Jun-05 | Timn8ter I must admit you have a intriging design I love the idea of no crossover in the midrange.How many pairs have you sold?Imkind of getting the impression they are kind of foward sounding. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 251 Registered: Dec-03 | Jus' gettin' started. I've done a home theater and sold a couple of pairs in addition. They are not forward sounding at all. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 178 Registered: Jun-05 | So,without being biased how do you think they stack up to some these budget designs we are always discussing. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 252 Registered: Dec-03 | Better imaging and soundstage, lower bass response, better highs. Like the review says, they should cost more. Even if they weren't mine, I would still enjoy listening to them. Sometimes I set aside my towers and hook them up just because they can be so enjoyable. I use them full time in my home theater. If I roll to the sub at 80Hz they handle the dynamics very well. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 180 Registered: Jun-05 | Do you plan on building a floorstander? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 253 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes. I have designs waiting in the wings. Part of a longer term plan. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 319 Registered: Apr-04 | Did I miss something? Timn8ter, do you build speakers? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 254 Registered: Dec-03 | Yeah, I even sell some. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/alegrialing.htm |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 165 Registered: May-05 | Timn8ter, OK, so it's your butt I've got to kick, huh? :-) I don't find out about your speakers until after I've got the Ascends bought. Then, I find out about them and they're in WA state for heaven's sake. I read the review after the fact and they're pretty, dang impressive. So, when are you sending me a pair to compare to the Ascends or would you prefer to drop by and compare, huh? I've still got 2 weeks to return the first pair and I haven't received the rest yet, ya know. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 909 Registered: Feb-04 | Now there's a twist... |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 33 Registered: Jun-05 | Timn8ter! Appreciate the offer and I will look into it and consider it. Well, it keeps getting worse! I have read GREAT things about: Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Monitor Audio Bronze B2 B&W DM601 S3 and DM602 S3 PSB Image B25 Aegis Evo One Axiom M22ti and M3ti NHT SB3 Paradigm Titans, Mini Monitors, and Monitor 3's and Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 NONE of these speakers seem that much better than any of the rest...(except of course the upgrade in the same series line - m22ti's over m3ti's, for example) but I really did love the review of the PSB Image B25 in Stereophile - I just wish I could find more favorable reviews about this speaker to confirm this reviewers opinion. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 256 Registered: Dec-03 | Hmmm....well, if you weren't clear over in Idaho.... |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 257 Registered: Dec-03 | Oops, that was for David. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 183 Registered: Jun-05 | I think it has to be an impressive design.Im all ears when it comes to a crossover thats out of the midrange its a shame we have well known speaker builders that have been in buisness for 30 or more years and still dont do this.Timn8ter I got my eyes and ears on you. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 258 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 232 Registered: Jul-04 | Someone buy the Ling and report back to us! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 185 Registered: Jun-05 | Im thinking about it. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 170 Registered: May-05 | Tm, OUCH, that hurts. By the way, I believe the name of the State is supposed to be Columbia. That's when we conservative No. Idahoers and Eastern Washington folks dump you wild-eyed liberals on the west and secede. LOL But, we'll still listen to your speakers, Tim. SO, just bring 'em on down. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 186 Registered: Jun-05 | So,Timn8ter if you buil a floorstander is it gonna be the same design aproach as the bookshelf?A 2 way 2 driver set up? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 259 Registered: Dec-03 | There are two floorstanding designs. One is a 2 way system using two 16 ohm versions of the woofer in the Ling wired in parallel, same tweeter in a narrow cabinet. The other is a large 3 way tower that is essentially the Ling on top of a dual 6" woofer bass unit. I also have working prototypes of a center channel, another monitor and a tiny mighty sub on the drawing board. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 260 Registered: Dec-03 | Sent you a personal message David. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 171 Registered: May-05 | Tim, Sorry about that. I had about 100 posts from the site and I deleted them all so I didn't get it. I'll be more careful next time. I usually read only the threads I'm following and I'm getting posts from about 20 threads. SORRY!! As some point, I'll get to the west side and I would be interested in meeting you and hearing the speakers, although it will probably be after the Ascends are well esconsed, as the remainder of the system shows up today. Thanks, though. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 264 Registered: Dec-03 | Re-sent PM. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 173 Registered: May-05 | Tim, Check your email. I couldn't figure out how to PM you back. Help, I'm incompetent!! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 265 Registered: Dec-03 | info@alegriaaudio.com |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 176 Registered: May-05 | OK Tim, I've sent the response email twice and your system acknowledged and said you'd answer within 24 hours. So, I'll assume you got it. Thanks, Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 267 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, I got them but my response to the redanco address got kicked back. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 268 Registered: Dec-03 | I mean randanco. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 179 Registered: May-05 | Tim, I don't know why it's doing that unless our firewall is treating your email as "junk". So, just PM your reply and in your reply, explain to me how I PM you and we'll avoid this whole email snafu. I've emailed the ecoustics web administrator for instructions on how to PM but no response, yet. THanks, Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 269 Registered: Dec-03 | Administrator? What administrator? Sent you a PM. |
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Anonymous | Tim, My first set of speakers were Paradigm Titans (1 yr). Then I moved up to the Paradigm Mini (1/2 yr.). There is no comparison between the Minis and Titans. The Minis were much clearer and had bass deeper. I then switched to NHT SB2 and was disappointed at first for the lack of bass that I'm use to from the Minis. However, it was definately clearer than the Minis. However, it got to the point of it being too bright because my Denon rec. didn't match the NHT, but went well with the paradigms. Anyhow, I am getting use to the clarity of the SB2 with my new Marantz rec. and added an HSU sub for the bass. If I do go back to Paradigm, it would be a step up to the Studio line. This is all in reference to music. As for movies, I think Paradigm would be too laid back. I would not move to SB3s, but spend the $$ on a better sub. Good luck. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 234 Registered: Jul-04 | I think that was a helpful post. I take back everything I have said about you over the years, anonymous! |
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Anonymous | Don is correct about the echoing sound of NHTs. At least I have experienced this with my SB2s. I did not hear this in the paradigm minis. I can't comment on the other speakers because I have nevered own them. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 235 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks Anon - I guess I can hear after all. Sometimes I am not sure. My mindset has a lot to do with it unless I am AB-ing them which I did with the totem dreamcatcher and the SB-1 or SB-2. I am not sure how the Axioms and Ascends stack up to the SB-2 as far as echoing - The Axioms use a funny shaped box to minimize it, the ascends - I don't know. I think the M22s still have some but not bad. The Ascends - maybe a little less. M22s vs Ascend 170s is a hard call. I think I like the high frequency detail of the M22s better and therefor slightly prefer it over the 170s. But the 170s are smoother - more balanced I think. Slight differences. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 236 Registered: Jul-04 | So, Timothy - any decisions yet? Any new threads? I wonder if in the bracket of the speakers you are looking at, you can't really go wrong. Without hearing them - maybe you can only get to a small group since you can't decide which is your particular sound preference by hearing them. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 34 Registered: Jun-05 | I thought that I finally narrowed it down to: PSB Image B25 (sound like they are divine, according to Stereophile!) B&W DM601 (or DM 602) S3 - have read many good things about these speakers. Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 - also supposed to be amazing speakers, especially for the money. Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 - have read very good things about them - and a lot of people say great things about them BUT I wonder if this is just hype gone out of control - PLUS - they supposedly have less bass response compared to other speakers that I am looking at! BUT THEN!: Other people recommended these (and they seem to be highly reviewed as well!): Castle Richmond 3i Linn Classic Unik Quad 11L KEF Q1 AAAaaaarrrrggghhh!!!!! I want to scream! (And can you tell that I have been hanging around British Hi-Fi message board forums???!!!) That's another thing! - People on that side of the pond don't seem to know about American and Canadian speakers to be able to make fair comparisons... and people on this side of the pond don't seem to know much about British speakers to make fair comparisons! HHEELLPP!! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 240 Registered: Jul-04 | Jump! Jump! You are squandering precious music listening time! Just kidding. What do you use at present? Just curious. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 187 Registered: May-05 | Timothy, I'll be able to give some insight on the Ascends and Lings shortly. You'll have to talk to others on the others, i'm afraid. How soon do you want to pull the trigger? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 241 Registered: Jul-04 | One half-assed way to do it is to compare customer ratings on the audio review site. Might be one way of helping you decide, and better than throwing dice. http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/bookshelf-speakers/PLS_4290crx.aspx Of course then it becomes which 4.9 rated speaker do you choose. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 35 Registered: Jun-05 | "Of course then it becomes which 4.9 rated speaker do you choose" EXACTLY. Hence the "hype" comment about the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170's, rated 4.94 with 80 reviews. It was, however, the only one that was consistently rated over 4.9 of all the speakers that I looked at there. I did not like how they combined the PSB Image B2 and B25 speakers for rating purposes there - surely the B25 has improved on the B2, warranting a separate review. But, even if I have to "roll the dice" I want to try to do it with the best 6 choices, based on informing myself to death about those speakers! I think if I am careful I'd be more than happy with any one of them - especially if I am careful with pairing them up with a decent receiver. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 242 Registered: Jul-04 | Wharfedale 9.1 - 5.0 2 reviews Ascend 170s - 4.94 80 reviews B&W DM600 S3 - 4.88 17 reviews Energy C-3 - 4.83 6 reviews B&W DM601 S3 - 4.8 41 reviews Axiom M22 - 4.7 56 reviews PSB 2B/B25 - 4.57 49 reviews B&W DM 601 - 4.52 81 reviews When over 10 or so reviews are in I think it means something. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 214 Registered: Jun-05 | Well in the 9.1s case they havent been out as long as the other speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 244 Registered: Jul-04 | Good point Tawaun And just to add to the collection - some more overhyped speakers Bose 301 Series III 96 reviews 2.73 of 5 Hype may only go so far, but yes it seems the Ascends can't get a bad review no matter how hard they try - seems a little odd. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 278 Registered: Dec-03 | "When over 10 or so reviews are in I think it means something." An aggressive marketing plan? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 216 Registered: Jun-05 | I have never heard them,but i know in a short time they have garnered one the biggest followings in speaker history and the people most of has had some very reptable names not BOSE either so they must be good, most people dont like to waste money.So I believe the hype I would like to see them come out with a 2 way floorstander that goes down to about 45 heartz that would be interresting not trying to get off the subject though. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 190 Registered: May-05 | T-Man, I think you may get your wish from Ascend but you'll have to give it a little while. There's some rumors BUT nothing solid, yet. But, I'm like the proverbial kid in the candy store. Are you sure, you don't want to drive those over, Tim. We can have some fun balancing the system and I'll feed ya and give you a place to stay. Spokane is lovely this time of year, actually is, it's 80 degrees and sunny. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 217 Registered: Jun-05 | Ahh...how I miss the wescoast if I was on westcoast I would really join you guys for this shootout and even bring along a few contenders. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 279 Registered: Dec-03 | "Are you sure, you don't want to drive those over, Tim." In the days of cheap gas and big blocks it was a 4 hour drive, but now...!! A very kind invitation and under other circumstances I'd be inclined to accept. Terribly busy currently. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 245 Registered: Jul-04 | He is going to be selling a lot of speakers soon and then will need to buy a warehouse, etc. He doesn't have time for leisurely drives and hanging out to listen to what he has already heard. But, maybe you can work him for a bribe! PAYOLA!! Just kidding. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 281 Registered: Dec-03 | I couldn't afford him. I know what his rates are. |
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Anonymous | "I have never heard them,but i know in a short time they have garnered one the biggest followings in speaker history" The Ascend Acoustics 170 has been out over 5 years and the lead designer designed for M&K for years. Ascend is just now catching on on most boards. Not exactly a short time. Tim- Your speakers look good. I wish you much success. Have you thought about a longer trial period than 14 days? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 194 Registered: May-05 | Anon, Tim didn't limit the trial period, I did. I have to make a decision on the Ascends in about 14 days. So, one or the other will have to go back. Tim has been incredibly accomodating on this whole thing, even if he won't drive over, deliver them and help me set up and balance the system. Like he's too busy making speakers or something, right? LOL |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 282 Registered: Dec-03 | My website says 14 days. I am thinking about it. It's kinda like a trial period for the trial period. For someone like me that listens every day it seems reasonable, however, for someone else, maybe not. ? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 198 Registered: May-05 | Sorry, I should have read Tim's site more closely or let him speak for himself. BUT, Tim said i could try these for a couple of years and then return them if I didn't like 'em. LOL, Just kidding, Tim. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 283 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm not worried. You're far too easy to track down David. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 203 Registered: May-05 | Yeah, it's true. And, I'm old and slow on top of it. But, I'm thinking that the Lings are going to be worth the wait and the listen. How many hours on this pair? Do I get a discount on "used" equipment if I decide to keep them? We'll negotiate further after the "Battle Between Gardena (CA that is) and Seattle." (You'll going to need your wife because this could take weeks to put together and there'll be lots of paper, I'm sure.) :-0 |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 285 Registered: Dec-03 | That pair should have at least 20 hours on them. Should be good to go. I feel morally obligated to participate, initially, in any good faith negotiation. ;-) |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 46 Registered: Jun-05 | And I'll still throw the Energy C-3s out there. Not as many reviews as some of the others, but they still sound great. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 36 Registered: Jun-05 | "And I'll still throw the Energy C-3s out there. Not as many reviews as some of the others, but they still sound great" WHAT HI*FI SOUND AND VISION MAGAZINE had this to say about the C-3: (3 stars out of 5) "Well made stylish speakers with good timing and rhythm but brash treble" |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 246 Registered: Jul-04 | Ouch - I had heard only good things about the C3 - great things even. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 221 Registered: Jun-05 | Its a very short time compared to most you have companies like Tannoy they have been in buisness for 70+ years and several with 15 and more so it is a short time. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 247 Registered: Jul-04 | Wharfedale 9.1 Cnet review - where getting 8 out of 10 means you have a great product, and where the ratings are often off from what other sites say. So, not authoritative but still interesting. BAsically they mentioned no faults in the 9.1 yet still rated it only 7.7? ------- "Good speakers are not cheap, and despite a somewhat hefty price tag, these high-end bookshelf models are still an outstanding value. Editors' rating: 7.7 Very good The good: Beautifully built bookshelf speaker; elegant curves; wood cabinet; 5-inch woofer; 1-inch tweeter; form-fitting metal grille; all-metal biwire connectors. The bad:It's bigger than your average satellite speaker. What's it for:Listening to music and movies. Who's it for:Listeners who want smaller speakers that deliver better sound quality than the usual HTIB fare. The bottom line:Wharfedale's pricey Diamond 9.1 bookshelf satellite sets a high standard for build and sound quality." -------- Price = $349? -------- "The Diamond 9.1 is fairly large for a bookshelf speaker, measuring 7.75 inches wide, 11.75 inches high, and 11 inches deep." (The M22s are about 24 inches high!) "The new Motown Remixed CD features the Temptations classic "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" with a newly added funky bass line. The 9.1s on their own delivered a very credible groove. The Temps' vocals were clear and clean, and treble detail was above par. We feel confident that in small rooms (less than 200 square feet), some Diamond 9.1 buyers might not feel the need to add the sub for music or home-theater duty." "The Diamond 9.1 might be the most beautiful speaker we've seen for this kind of money--its sexy curves were probably inspired by some of the better British and Italian speakers." |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | I wouldnt pay too much attention to the ratings on Audio Revview. Everyone hears differently, and not every has been exposed to the same equipment. For example on the reviews for the Ascend's if you read the "similiar products used" category most of them list mass market stuff like Sony and Bose. Hardly and real competition. Also ,I wouldnt be suprised if some of the reviews were written by associates. Also, the PSB Stratus Silveri has a rating of 4.91 of 5 which is pretty close to the Ascend CBM-170, but these speakers sound completely different. Stop relying on online reviews to compare speakers, its a waste of time. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 237 Registered: Jun-05 | Some of those reviews are such crap.What are those idiots rating the speaker on then? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1192 Registered: Mar-05 | Timothy D., No doubt we will NEVER know for sure how many positive reviews that different audio products get are written by shills. HOWEVER, keep this one equally indisputable fact in mind: while any company can have shills post glowing reviews, NO company can *prevent* people from posting negative reviews. When I was shopping speakers almost one year ago, I perused the consumer and professional reviews very closely, and with a skeptical mind. What made me sit up and pay attention to the Ascends however, was the fact that I could not find ONE really negative review on them...whereas with the Axioms for example, I did find a few bad reviews and they consistently complained of the same thing: excessive brightness. The other factor to consider is what audioreview's ratings are based on: a handful of reviews, or a couple dozen? Somed00d brings up the PSB Stratus Silveri as an example of a speaker that also has extremely high ratings. Two things however: 1. the PSBs' 4.91 comes from 23 reviews whereas the Ascend CBM-170s' 4.94 rating is derived from a whopping 80 reviews. 2. the Ascends have an MSRP of $359 (actual price with shipping is $340 on their website) while the PSB Stratus Silveri is listed with an $1800 MSRP. Hey for over FIVE times the money, I say those PSBs darn better mop the floor with the Ascends! Now if anyone knows of ANY speaker that: 1. Is within the same price range as the Ascends, 2. Has an average review rating anywhere as high as the Ascends, *AND* 3. Has that average rating based upon anywhere as many consumer reviews, please let me know. During my exhaustive research I certainly couldn't find any speaker that fit those 3 criteria. NOTE: I am not saying that merely because of the reasons I listed above, the Ascends are God's gift to audio and every person on the planet who hears them is sure to love them as I do, absolutely not. However, if those facts that I listed above do not justify putting the Ascends squarely at the top of the "To audition" list for any person with similar applications (80% music and used with a subwoofer) and tastes (classical, jazz, vocals, instrumental, etc.) then I don't know what else possibly could. So Tim, there is no guarantee that you will love the Ascends as much as I do...ditto for any of the other speakers you've listed. But if you are trying to narrow your ever-growing list of speakers you're curious about but will not have a chance to personally audition, there's simply way too much handwriting on the wall to NOT have the Ascends on your top 3 list. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 238 Registered: Jun-05 | Well I guess you can say thats true,they have one huge following and it aint for the looks so something has to be true. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Yes, the Ascends are a lot cheaper than the PSB's at LIST price. However, you can find a near mint pair or PSB Stratus Silvers for about $500.00 bucks on Audiogon. For this kind of money, they are a much better buy than the Ascends imo. You can also get PSB Stratus series speakers new for a HUGE discount off retail. I understand Ascend has more ratings, but also remember PSB's are a more well known brand, so the chance of people comparing them to other well regarded brands is much higher than with the Ascends. Im betting my money that most of the Ascends customers have compared them to very little, if anything else. Anyways, they are both fantastic speakers by my book. I just wouldnt judge their sound based on reviews. You may hate or love any speaker regardless of the reviews or price. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 554 Registered: Mar-05 | I was blown awat by the PSB platinums but not that impressed at the stratus silvers. Course they didn't hold a candle to the Totems which I eventually settled on. Yeah I know twice the price but hey it's worth it when you get ten times the sound. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1194 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, yep you hit the nail on the head: the Ascend 170s are NOT speakers you buy for their looks. The 340s look fine though. The other caveat with the 170s (and to a lesser extent, the 340s too) is that they were designed to be used with a subwoofer. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1195 Registered: Mar-05 | Somed00d, I don't recall hearing the Stratus Silvers, but I found the other PSBs that I did the side by side auditioning of locally to be several notches behind my 340s...must've been more entry-level PSBs since I limited my comparisons to speakers up to $1300/pair. You're right, I would not base a speaker purchase SOLELY on reviews either. However I think given the vast array of choices out there, reviews can help you narrow the list, just as asking around on audio forums like this can. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 243 Registered: Jun-05 | Na that would'nt be the silvers,but the silvers has not been upgraded in about 12 years so it is possible.When they first came out they were ahead of everything at that price,but they have been walked down now.But that Paul Barton he knows how to build some great speakers he is one of the best speaker designers ever. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 48 Registered: Jun-05 | Timothy.. while I am a subscriber to Sound+Vision, I take their reviews with a grain of salt - after all they've had positive things to say about Bose Lifestyle systems. The Energy C-3's treble is not brash at all... it's as neutral a speaker I've heard in the price range (and I will admit I have NOT heard the Ascends) with great bass response from a bookshelf. While I was not looking at them as main speakers, I insisted on auditioning them as mains - my belief was that a speaker that sounds good as a main speaker will sound GREAT as a surround speaker. The C-3 does not disappoint. While I have not read that Sound+Vision review, it's the only remotely negative review I've seen of the C-3, professional or amateur. Here's a review from Soundstage for your perusal: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/energy_c3.htm I'm not saying that the C-3 is the right speaker for you, just that it should ABSOLUTELY NOT be ruled out based on a Sound+Vision review. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 246 Registered: Jun-05 | Sound and Vision suck anyway,how can you give a proper review on one speaker when you are reviewing the whole lot on movies and sacd just not possible if the speaker is not reviewed on its own its no way it can get a fair review.Dont ever take the advice for a hometheater mag when it comes to speakers.Sound&Vision gives Bose good reviews so what does that tell you.Dont base everything on a review,but even worse dont listen to any of the home theater mags |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 206 Registered: May-05 | Hey, I went out for the evening and you guys went crazy on the posts and we got some great feedback and suggestions for Timothy. Just to weigh in on the Ascends, I'm certain they're not close to the best speaker on the market. But, as Edster points out, it's within their price range that they shine. When you have to compare it to speakers that cost 2-4 times as much (and I've got the 170s not the 340s) to find a comparable sound, that says they're a pretty decent speaker. Will you like them as well as some of these other suggestions, Timothy, I agree with Odd and Edster, at some point you have to listen for yourself. Edster convinced me to try them but he couldn't convince me to keep them if they didn't sound great. And now, I've got the opportunity to put them up against another great speaker for the money so we'll see how the Lings and Ascends compare to give you another choice to drive you crazy. BUT, you might hear them and choose differently because of how your other equipment plays with the speakers and your own listening preferences. I like clean highs, solid midrange and transparency in the speakers. You may like yours to be a little more forward on the trebles, so maybe the Axioms M22s float your boat. At some point, you've gotta listen and make up your own mind. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 50 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks T-Man.. glad to see my opinion is not unique. I like S+V for the updates on new products and their reviews of DVDs and Music (particularly SACD/DVD-A). Their product reviews do leave something to be desired. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 248 Registered: Jun-05 | I like their reviews for updates and video equipment,Recievers,although they never really get into how the receiver plays in 2 channel.Not trying to step on your toes or nothing like that. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 52 Registered: Jun-05 | My problem with S+V's reviews is how much of an emphasis they put on (list) price, especially in comparison reviews. A couple of months ago, they did a comparo of a few front projectors, where the Sony Cineza won, mostly because of its price relative to the Hitachi PJ-TX100. But the Sony lists for $3500 and has a street price in the $3000 range; whereas the Hitachi lists for $3999 and has a street price around $1500 - offering much better performance for the dollar. I don't feel like I have to have a magazine justify my decisions, but when you consider today's real-world puchasing, they do a disservice to the reader by factoring list price into their recommendations. I'd rather have an empirical decision, and make my own decisions based on price.... |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 210 Registered: May-05 | Ziggy, Wonderful review on the C-3s. Sounds like they would have been a great option, if only I had a hi-fi store in Spokane that carried em. LOL |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 53 Registered: Jun-05 | I know David... I would have been interested to see your comparison if you had been able to listen to them. The Ascends weren't in the picture when I bought the C-3s, but then I would have had to compare the 340s with the C-5s I use as fronts in that theater. From everything I've heard, you've done well with the Ascends.... I'm among those looking forward to your review of Tim's Lings. If he is going to make some floorstanders down the road, it will be something for me to consider. |
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Barnacle Unregistered guest | I'd be very interested in a group blind test of the PSB Silveri and the Ascend 340 with a sub(Hsu STF-1). From my experience with the Silveri the 340 and a sub will be most peoples choice. The Silveri's MSRP is $1900 and b-stock is $1300. The Silveris do have one of the few metal tweeter that, while still slightly grating, doesn't send me running out of the room in minutes. The 340 has better mids because both woofers are used for mid reproduction instead of one for bass. Then come my biases against a company that has so much b-stock it take three seperate companies to sell it all(dmc, upscale, yawa). The Audiogon market is another redflag to me. Used they sell under 50% of retail. Used Ascends I see go for around 85% of retail. |
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Squidy Unregistered guest | I have recently bought a set of five Dream Acoustics speakers off e-bay, and the tweeters of all of them are noisy static and buzz. The other one/two parts of the speaker work fine. Is this because I only have a 2 channel input such as my VCR? I have tried it on prologic II, all modes of surround and tried the tuner and there is still this noise. Any suggestions other than getting them exchanged? |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | That's funny because my uncle and brother both thought the PSB Image 2b ( PSB's lower line) was better than the CBM-170. My uncle kept asking me " so are these suppose to sound better than the PSB's after break in?" My brother, when he first heard the PSB's said how they sounded " airy, but also fast and 3D" when he first heard the Ascends, he just had a disgusted look on his face. I think though that this was mostly because they were hooked up to an Onkyo reciever, where the PSB's would be more forgiving. And imo the PSB's had bad cabinet resonances and were rather bright. But i did agree that they gave a more emotional presentation that the Ascends. I wouldnt want to own either one. And yes , once again the PSB's are much more retail, but I think this is more of a statement. I really doubt anyone expects to sell PSB's for retail. My old Image 2b's retail for $399 but i bought them for $249. Besides, I wouldnt compare the Silvers to the CMT-340, based on the CBM -170 theyd be more compared to the Stratus Mini, which is about the same used ( im exc condition) as the CMT-340. Yeah you buy used, but you also get a better finish and imo a much more musical presentaion than the Ascend house sound. I dont know, either the CMT's are MUCH better than the CBM's, or the Silver's arent nearly as good as the Stratus Mini because to me the Stratus Mini blows away the CBM-170's so badly. yes the Stratus series tweeter isnt perfect, but Ill put up with a little grain if it will actually invovles me into the music. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1203 Registered: Mar-05 | Somed00d, well, you've made a good point there---this thread is about $400/pair bookshelves, which means the Ascend 170s not my 340s. Actually from what you usually say about your experience with the 170s, I have a hunch you'd probably like the 340s more. They have the same woofers but use a different, wide-dispersion tweeter and even on the Ascend forum there is some debate as to which speaker folks prefer. From what I've read, those Ascend owners who prefer the 170s often claim that these are more accurate and neutral to their ears, while those who prefer the 340s often say that those are more "alive" and involving, albeit while sacrificing a tad bit of the 170s' flatness and accuracy. When I auditioned the Ascends locally, the guy had the 340s in one room running off a digital amp, and the 170s in a different room running off a Marantz 7200. I actually preferred the 170s myself, they had a certain clarity and control that I found lacking in the 340s...of course the difference in receivers might've played a part in that too. I narrowly ended up going with the 340s only because I have a 6000 cubic foot listening room so I wanted the extra woofer. |
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Barnacle Unregistered guest | I agree PSBs are more forgiving of poor source and front end electronics and will warm things up. If your want to crank rollnroll on a low to mid-fi receiver they are a pretty good choice. If you want to hear the nuances of jazz or classical they are not all that. The Ascends will reveal the details in the source and will not color what your front end electronics are sending. The Stratus Mini lists for more than what a whole Ascend 170 7.0 HT costs. It better sound significantly better. I find it takes lots of extended listening to many, well 4 or more anyway, different speakers to hear which are really better. When you compare against a decent speaker that you are used to the sound of and expect sound wise you don't necessarily pick up on how good other speakers are. We tend to like what we are used to. I find the 340 is a noticeable step above the 170. Two drivers not trying to reproduce anything below 50hz and doing everything above accurately. The two drivers compared to the 170 can be looked at as twice the volume before reaching the same distortion as the 170 or half the distortion at the same volume. The 340 also uses a better tweeter than the 170. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1210 Registered: Mar-05 | Barnacle, Actually I think Somed00d was comparing the Stratus Mini to the 340s, albeit based on his experience with the 170s. Still, if a pair of Minis lists at the same price as an Ascend 170 7.0 HT as you say, then it's probably about the same as an Ascend 340 4.0 or 5.0 I imagine...apples to oranges, I'd say. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 249 Registered: Jul-04 | Edster wrote: "No doubt we will NEVER know for sure how many positive reviews that different audio products get are written by shills. HOWEVER, keep this one equally indisputable fact in mind: while any company can have shills post glowing reviews, NO company can *prevent* people from posting negative reviews. When I was shopping speakers almost one year ago, I perused the consumer and professional reviews very closely, and with a skeptical mind. What made me sit up and pay attention to the Ascends however, was the fact that I could not find ONE really negative review on them...whereas with the Axioms for example, I did find a few bad reviews and they consistently complained of the same thing: excessive brightness." Somedood wrote: "...to me the Stratus Mini blows away the CBM-170's so badly. yes the Stratus series tweeter isnt perfect, but Ill put up with a little grain if it will actually invovles me into the music." Hey somedood - move on over the audio review and post a negative review there. What do you say? |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 956 Registered: Feb-04 | My mother has a pair of Axiom M40ti (granted they are not bookshelf). I don't find them overly bright, but I do find that the bass lacks a bit of definition and is perhaps a bit boomy. But that is pretty typical of sub-$1000 floorstanders, I guess. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 274 Registered: Jun-05 | Well the Stratus Minis are pretty accurate they are a$1100 bookshelf retail with some pretty deep bass for a bookshelf down to about 42 htz. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 250 Registered: Jul-04 | Just in the interest of fairness - write a negative review. And in the interest of fairness - from 10 reviews of the Ascend 170s chosen at random: 1) Similar Products Used: Too many to remember since early 60's: Electro-Voice, JBL, NHT, Lynn Kans, Maggies, Martin-Logan, a few others. 2) Similar Products Used: Killed the Bose 201's Lambasted the RadioShack 55's Bowed to the VMPS 626r's with auricaps 3)Similar Products Used: B&W, Mission, M&K, Energy, Def Techs, Paradigm... loads more 4) Similar Products Used: none 5) (didn't say at all - kept talking about receivers!) 6) I have listened to speakers offered by boutique stores, high end audio and box stores including: Axiom Audio, KEF, Monitor Audio, Dali, Von Schweikert, Dynaudio, Triangle, PSB, and other makers of "state of the art" offerings. 7) Similar Products Used: Axiom, Klipsch, Definitive, Polk, JBL, etc. 8) Similar Products Used: Bose Acoustimass 9) Similar Products Used: klipsch, paradigms, rockets, axioms 10) Similar Products Used: Kef, M&K, JBL THX, Def. Tech. ----------- 7 of 10 used other decent speakers. 1 used no other speakers to compare, 1 didn't say, and 1 used Bose. These were ten reviews chosen at random (the two pages I had open when I thought about checking this claim). Other compared Dynaudio and Totem, etc. So, I would say MOST people who buy Ascends have checked out other good speakers. That doesn't make them better than other speakers, it just clarifies the validity of the Audioreview reviews a little. Disclaimer: Yeah - I own 170s, they seem fine compared to other similarly priced speakers that I have casually heard at the stores (Totems, NHT, many Paradigms, Klipsch, I also own some Axioms). |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 251 Registered: Jul-04 | Oh, and to throw this into the mix - one of the moderators on Ascend boards said the usual price of a used Ascend 170s is $250. Some sold on ebay for $282 last week. Just more info for comparing other used speakers that may be much cheaper used to the 170s - they can be had used, as well. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 276 Registered: Jun-05 | Very well broken down Don, Ascend owners do apear in general like they have some knowledge on good speakers.As you have noticed I have never said anything bad about the Ascends.For one I havent heard them ,the following for them is pretty large and most of the people are true audiophiles. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1212 Registered: Mar-05 | Good work there, Don. I never bought the "Ascend reviewers never owned any decent speakers before" argument anyways; sometime when I have some time to kill maybe I'll go through all 80 of those CBM-170 reviews and compile a tally. The point about high resale value which you and Barnacle brought up is also very interesting, I hadn't thought of that. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 252 Registered: Jul-04 | I am an addict but not a true audiophile. I was/am one of the 30% who had heard thoroughly checked out only a few other speakers. I went mostly on word on the internet. And the resale value did make it an easy decision to buy some used ascend 170s for $250. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 253 Registered: Jul-04 | Oh, thanks Edster and Tawaun The ascends may not be better than every other $300-400 dollar speakers. I just wanted to check out some of the data. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Well, I stick by my statement about Ascend owners not having very much experiance. I used to be a member on the Ascend forum and it seemed like most of the members bought Ascend without listening to much competition, or if they did compare it was to lower end Paradigm or B&W or some other mediocre brand. If they did do a compare their bias was so strong they knew what theyd like before comparing ( see Curtis - the most bias person ive met on forums- ) I was a member over two years ago, so Im not sure how they are now, and most of the old archives are difficult to access. Edster- from what i've read I probably would like the CMT's more. It seems like people say they are more musical, and more involving. Instead of being overly analytical and detailed. Id like to hear a pair someday to see if they compare to the CBM- 170's. Anyone have a pair in or around Orange County? You can compare retail and resale all you want, but im simply stating my experiance with Ascend. My findings were that although good for the money, they arent the "giant killers" that people want to believe they are. I dont know if id write a review. For one thing im lazy, and dont like typing. Second, if I did write a review it wouldnt be negative, just honest . |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | btw I sold my CBM-170's for $220.00 + shipping . I just wanted to get rid of them. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1623 Registered: Jan-05 | "Well, I stick by my statement about Ascend owners not having very much experiance. I used to be a member on the Ascend forum and it seemed like most of the members bought Ascend without listening to much competition, or if they did compare it was to lower end Paradigm or B&W or some other mediocre brand. If they did do a compare their bias was so strong they knew what theyd like before comparing" ================== yea, in a lot of ways, Ascend owners are a lot alike Bose owners. Is that what you were saying?? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1216 Registered: Mar-05 | Somed00d, Geez, if you live in Orange County CA you're practically within driving distance of the Ascend HQ! I think there are a couple of guys in southern Cal, I'm sure you'd get plenty of offers if you posted on the Ascend forum. I totally respect your difference of opinion, though I am still curious to hear your thoughts on an equal or better speaker than the 170s WITHIN the same price range. It's too bad you are reluctant to write an audioreview review of the Ascends, your criticisms of them seem quite balanced and honest not simple dumb bashing. Also I can almost understand why people might get a little suspicious at the total lack of negative reviews on them, which is another reason I'd like to see something from you there! : ) |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Thats not what im saying. Ascend are actually good speakers, unlike Bose. People who buy Bose compare them to other CRAP. Ascend owners compare them to other decent speakers. If this is what u mean by similiar, I guess youre right. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Edster, If they are at the same place as a few years ago ( Gardena I think?) then they are about 20 miles from me if I remember correctly. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1220 Registered: Mar-05 | Wow, 20 miles...can't see any reason NOT to come and listen, I'm sure they must have a small demo room for the curious. I'd call them first, of course. |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 752 Registered: Dec-03 | Where exactly in Gardena? Tim's speaker looks interesting - the X-over. The same reason why Luther's and other full range speakers are liked. I am intrigued... I like 4.5 woofer - they do mid better than a bigger ones. Timothy, You are a careful person, and it will reward to research b4 buying anything, but looks like you chose many good ones, and it boils down to subjective personal taste. If you can hear as many as possible, preferably in your home set-up, and then go with your heart. You will probably buy many of the speakers in your list - like many audiophiles, buying and selling, and enjoying many different sounds. It's a fun hobby for adults - don't sweat it, but enjoy it - it's fun. You will gradually learn to build up your system - there are many many things you can do to try to shoot for sonic- heaven. Treating power with power conditioner, dedicated power line, room acoustics, cables, speaker stand (filling them with sand), etc. You did good to compile the list - just try to hear as many as you can, and go with your heart. If you buy them used at www.audiogon.com, you can re-sell them at close to the cost if you don't like them. Just get your feet wet and have some good music at home - that's what it's about, isn't it? |
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Anonymous | I have always thought those 170 guys have never heard the 340 and are defending their budget limits based on a graph instead of what the two sound like. There is about 1dB difference in the peaks and valleys for most of the response graph. 1dB difference is fairly hard to hear. To argue that 1dB in flatness over sound quality as a whole is not an arguement I would make. The 170 is a very good speaker and they are right to be proud of owning it but it is not better than the 340. Testing speakers in different rooms with different front ends doesn't tell you much. Next time ask if they can be moved together. Some of those digital amps have too much hype. A few are alright. I would give them a few more years to reach maturity as a technology. I do find them very promising for performance to price ratio. I bet that Marantz was a whole lot warmer sounding than a digital amp. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 254 Registered: Jul-04 | Somedood wrote: "Well, I stick by my statement about Ascend owners not having very much experiance. I used to be a member on the Ascend forum and it seemed like most of the members bought Ascend without listening to much competition, or if they did compare it was to lower end Paradigm or B&W or some other mediocre brand. If they did do a compare their bias was so strong they knew what theyd like before comparing ( see Curtis - the most bias person ive met on forums- ) I was a member over two years ago, so Im not sure how they are now, and most of the old archives are difficult to access." Fair enough. |
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Anonymous | Have you ever considered you are the biased one? Few people listen to as many speakers as Curtis. He gets lots of respect from not only the audiophile community but from owners of audio companies including ones he does not own. Have you ever thought there may be a reason he goes to CES regularly? You sound like some high school kid living in your parents' home when attacking someone with that much experience because he does not agree with you. What kind of music do you listen to? What volume do you use? What are your front end electronics? How old are you?(I would hate to be wasting time arguing with a cocky teenager trying to crank metal over a pair of 170s with a POS Onkyo.) How do you explain all the professional reviews for Ascend without any reviewer coding in them?(you know reviewer code; slightly tipped up treble= ear bleeding bright, slightly recessed mids= a huge hole in response, etc.) How come of all the on-line reviews by people that have heard them the only criticism you ever hear is about Ascend is their looks? Have you ever wondered why it has been 8-9 years since the Stratus-Mini has won any award or acclaim? Why do you keep referring to an $1100 speaker to say a $325 speaker isn't on par with that? Why didn't you return the 170s in the 30 day trial period if you thought they were that bad? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 255 Registered: Jul-04 | The one 3 out of 5 review - the most negative one on audio review of the ascend 170s Reviewed by: Mike , Audio Enthusiast, from Soldotna, Alaska Price Paid: $498 at Online Product Model Year: 2001 Summary: Okay, I don't want to be a party p**per, but...I've had these speakers for about 3 months now, broke them in by playing them constantly for several days, and I'm sorry they just don't do it for me. They work well with voices and sound effects, but musically they are too bright. The highs cause listener fatigue for me if I try and listen to music for any extended period. Also, the midrange is colored and lacking detail compared to some of my other small speakers I have compared them to. Now don't misunderstand, these speakers work and are an incredible value, hence the 5 for value, but performance wise I would rather spend some more money and get some speakers that work better musically. What have I compared them to with like components? ACI Emeralds for one. These are much more musical and detailed, but only cost about 200 dollars more. Dynaudio Contour 1.1's for another. No comparison at all, but then I would expect 1600 dollars speakers to be considerably better than 350 dollar speakers and they are. All in all at their price point these are a good value, but don't expect them to perform like some of the better bookshelf speakers out there at about twice the price or more. My son gets these to take to college. He'll play them loud with a subwoofer and enjoy the heck out of them. I tried various components and setups, even bought a new surround receiver and DVD player to see if it made a difference. It did to some degree, but not entirely. Strengths: Great price, but buyer beware if you live in say Alaska. The shipping is not free like the ad says. Well made and very sturdy. Weaknesses: Not all that musical, have an edge to them. Similar Products Used: B&W, ACI, Dynaudio, Definitive Technology, Paradigm. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 256 Registered: Jul-04 | ecoustics does not allow the word p o o p e r - I had to mispell it! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 293 Registered: Dec-03 | "ecoustics does not allow the word p o o p e r - I had to mispell it!" After some of the posts I've read, that amazes me. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 679 Registered: May-05 | timn8ter why not type it out using "Microsoft word" then highlight it copy and then paste it on the page for posting, that's what I always do as my spelling is awful, give it a go.... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1223 Registered: Mar-05 | Mike from Alaska is an interesting character: I have never seen "listener fatigue" and "colored midrange" used to describe the Ascends, in fact until reading his review I've always read the EXACT opposite from both consumer and professional reviewers! Anybody here familiar with his ACI Diamonds that he refers to, which he says cost just $200 more? Weird thing is that Mike wrote that he paid $498 online for the 170s which is REALLY BIZARRE since they cost $328 on the Ascend site which is the only place you can buy them ($340 shipped)...unless he was charged an additional $160 for shipping to Canada??? So do the ACI Diamonds cost $528/pair (328+200) or $698/pair (498+200)? (scratches head) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1110 Registered: Feb-05 | Here ya go Eddie. They sound interesting. I believe that I have read that they are a very good speaker. http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/speakers.htm#hometheater |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Here's a few more negative comments to add to your list: "The biggest problem is there was slight audible distortion than became apparent after 1 week of listening. I could fault them because I personally think aerogel is fatiguing and doesn't develop the full harmonics of guitar like AV-1's paper driver. While the clarity is addictive, I kept thinking "movie dialogue" and "rifle shots" while listening to these speakers. I didn't think "music" as much. They are definitely "leading edge" speakers compared to "trailing edge" Reynaud speakers. While maybe not the most musical, vocals are so clear, I could understand words more easily than ever. " "I think the AV-1 paper cone had more lifelike vocals compared to B&W kevlar and CBM aerogel." This review basically says theyre good speakes, just like I do, but also like me he finds aerogel fatiguing and thinks theyre better for movies rather than music. The speakers hes comparing them to are also much more expensive. "They are a pretty decent speaker. Wasn't thrilled with the appearance - but it would do. I thought they were accurate, but uninvolving" "I have since built the newest version of the Ed Frias DIY (crossovers from Madisound) - -cost about $325. In my opinion, the EFE DIY is hands down better than the Ascend CBMs. Its more dynamic, more musical, more engaging, and more open. I never really "got into" the music when listening to the CBMs - - it was more - - I kept "analyzing" the speaker" This is EXACTLY how I felt about the Ascends. They sounded very fast and detailed, but shut in and uninvolving. "I do agree however, that the product lends itself more to the analitical side of things. I also found the low-treble boost to be fatiguing, no matter the equipment. I still firmly believe that Ascend represents a great value in the current audio market, however, it certainly will not be everyones cup of tea. If given a choice, I would choose the Audio Note Ax-Two's. Augment them with the inexpensive Jolida 1301 that Brian recommends, and you well on your way to an excellent stereo experience for a very reasonable price." Don't get me wrong, my current speakers aren't peffect at all, and will probabaly replace them soon too. But, overall they were much more involving than the Ascend's and were worth every penny more that I paid for them. I didn't send the Ascend's back in the 30 days becaues I made the mistake of not comparing them to anything, just thinking because they got tons of reviews that they would satisfy me. Plus they sounded impressive to me...just not musical. I listened to all kinds of music on the Ascends, basically everything but country. Im not a big fan of classical or female vocals, but I did listen to some while evaluating the speakers. I dont think a speaker should only do one thing well, at least not a good speaker anyways. It should do everything from heavy metal to classical well. If it doesnt than its a limitation of the speaker, not the music/recordings. Bass wasn't a problem because I used them in a small room, which cant handle deep bass anyway. Besides bass isnt going to all of a sudden make the mids and highs better. Along with the Onkyo I used a Cambrdige amp which is MUCH better than the Onkyo. With the cambridge , the Ascends really opened up but not to a point where I wanted to keep them. Speakers and room are the most important part of a system btw. Anon, im not even going to bother with your other comments. As they sound like idiotic bashing to me. Please, tone it down and quit being so erratic if you want me to respond in a serious fashion. Right now you just sound like a disgruntled moron whos offended because I disagree with you. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 257 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks for the review, SomedOOd |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1226 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks for the link, Art. The ACI Diamonds are listed at $750 direct from ACI, which is about double the price of the Ascends. So I would certainly hope they at least equal the 170s. Of course specs only provide a fraction of the whole story, but I did notice that the Diamonds' low frequency extension is very close to the 170s' (65 vs. 70 Hz) and ditto with their sensitivity (88 Hz). In looks the Diamonds win of course, but not by all that wide of a margin at least not to my eyes. : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1228 Registered: Mar-05 | somed00d, where'd you get those quotes from? If you get a chance, please post the date of the listing so others can find them and read the whole review. Just had a few questions about the ones you posted: 1. What "AV-1" speaker is being compared to the 170s? It seems to be a very popular model name: KEF, Tannoy as well as Emerald and others all have "AV-1s." 2. I know nothing about Ed Frias products but any DIY speaker that costs $325 would likely go for at least twice that amount if shipped ready to use. 3. AudioNote AX-Two is listed at $600 before shipping: http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html BTW, the Jolida 1301 looks interesting! Wonder if its 30wpc is comparable to NAD's 30wpc or if that's an Onkyo 30wpc. Speaking of receivers/amps, I would disagree with you on speakers and room accoustics being the most important part of a system, I'd put speakers and amp tied for #1 and room accoustics a close #2...oh well that's a whole other thread of course. Thanks for digging up those 3 reviews and furthering the discussion though. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Edster, That's fine, we all eventually disagree on one thing or another. But, If you take a pair good speakers and pair it with a mediorce reciever, and place them in a good room, this will sound much better than a the same speakers with a great amp but horrible room. At least in the good room the speakers will have a chance to breathe, and give u most of what theyre capable of. In the bad room the speakers have no room to breathe, thus severly handicapping their performance regardless of how good the electronics are. Of course, there are variables to this, and it all depends on how bad the room really is, or how good the electronics mate with the speakers. In my experiance though, the room and speakers have the biggest impact on overall sound, with speaker/amp matching coming in second. Also, it's not about how much these speakers cost, i'm just giving you examples of more negative comments. Weaknesses are weaknesses regardless of how much the speakers cost, and they will still bother you even if the speakers only cost 300 dollars. These reviewers , and me alike, both agree they are awesome speakers for their price. Im just tired of people saying these stomp any 1k speakers, period. This is simply not true. I personally haven't heard a speaker in its price that was as transparent, but I have heard speakers in this price that give a presentaion some may like better. Oh yeah and that Jolida does look interesting. Its a hybrid, and interestingly enough its watts are rated just like an all tube amp. It doesnt double the watts when the impendance cuts in half. Ususally this means it will be as powerful as a 60 watt SS amp since its rated at 30 tube watts. Here's the Audio Aslum review I was referring to- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=119147&highlight=CBM-170&r= &session= Here's a post in response to this review that I also quoted- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=119181&highlight=CBM-170&se ssion= Here's the Audiokarma review where the Ascends are mentioned- http://audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-21756.html They are some good reading, enjoy. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1233 Registered: Mar-05 | Good reading, indeed! The Audio Asylum review and responses in particular. I'll have to bookmark those two sites. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 689 Registered: May-05 | I think we all have some major issues hear. I look at the stars and I see neither right nor wrong in them there just there. I listen to a loudspeaker, woo, and stop what's wrong with this picture... I think it sounds too bright, and not enough bass range in it to be believably realistic to surpass all the rest of the competition. I therefore seek out for one that does therefore making it wholesome. I can relax and enjoy Star Wars episode 3 and War of the Worlds till I'm therefore totally blue in the face.... |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 690 Registered: May-05 | The links somed00d placed well... That was as just exciting as watching 60minutes.... Though the ones you placed Edster922 where better.. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 293 Registered: Jun-05 | Edster the Jolida gear is killer for the money! |
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Barnacle Unregistered guest | AV-1 is GR Research's AV-1. I have not heard them. I read reviews all over the place for this speaker. It is $750 http://www.gr-research.com/kits/av1finished.htm. The ACI speakers are actually the Emeralds and are $750. I love the Force and Titan subs but think you're paying a premium for the cabinetry of the Emerald. But, I've only heard them in someone else's room so it could have been the room or the front end that made it so bright. I am interested in hearing the AudioNote. I find it a rare driver of 5" or less isn't easily localized. Their wide baffle designs are intriguing. Ascend would be wise to offer a wood grain vinyl like that on the AX or what Axiom uses. Outside of the PSBs, personal preferences obviously for each of us, I think soomedood has done excellent work finding some of the other giant killers out there beside Ascend. We all have different tastes in what we like. How did that one guy find the mid-range colored and treble tipped up on such a the flat response speaker? Sounds more like room interaction. The Jolida is a nice choice and yes Ed those are real watts not receiver fantasy watts. Another good giant killer choice by somedood. Curtis certainly does love Ascend. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Andy, What are you talking about? You mean the links with all those shiny pictures? Nothing wrong with that, but I dont see how my links weren't helpful to this discussion. Maybe you can type some more incoherent gibberish about Star Wars so we all can learn more about $400 speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 699 Registered: May-05 | Sorry, £400.00 pound loudspeakers, wow that's sure is an arm and a leg, I'll try and remember that in the future £400.00 pound loudspeakers good, £4000.00 pound loudspeakers Bad!!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 37 Registered: Jun-05 | pretty disappointed with this reply: http://www.soundstage.com/letters.shtml |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 586 Registered: Mar-05 | I don't understand why you would be disappointed with his reply? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 297 Registered: Dec-03 | Why? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 587 Registered: Mar-05 | Andy, as time goes on you posts stop making any sense whatsoever, "I think we all have some major issues hear. I look at the stars and I see neither right nor wrong in them there just there. I listen to a loudspeaker, woo, and stop what's wrong with this picture... I think it sounds too bright, and not enough bass range in it to be believably realistic to surpass all the rest of the competition. I therefore seek out for one that does therefore making it wholesome. I can relax and enjoy Star Wars episode 3 and War of the Worlds till I'm therefore totally blue in the face.... " that was in response to a review on ascend speakers???? are you on dope man! |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 203 Registered: May-05 | Timothy - I haven't heard every one of the speakers that you have mentioned, but then again I don't think that anyone here has heard every one of them side by side either. I have owned PSB's for about 10-12 years now and can't say enough good things about them. In my opinion (this is obviously subjective and biased) the PSB's don't have the deepest bass, most articulate highs, and so on; but I have always found them to be the best balance of all the qualities that most of us look for at a great price. The line competing with speakers priced far more expensive is definately over-used and abused, so I won't go there. I can't speak for the internet speakers because I haven't heard them. I have heard speakers from all other manufacturers except the Monitor Audio. All things being equal (dollar for dollar and comparable design) I've always given the nod to PSB. About that letter you linked us to, forget about it. You can be very happy with a "budget" speaker. Too often these people think that you have to spend excessive amounts of money speakers that you can't afford just to get decent sound, let alone great sound. Of the speakers you mentioned, I really don't think you can go wrong with any of them (at least the ones I've heard), I just prefer PSB's. Don't let some magazine editor tell you you're settling for sub-par gear or even mediocrity. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1247 Registered: Mar-05 | Timothy D., I understand your disappointment. Whenever you ask someone for an opinion on speakers and they tell you to go out and listen for yourself (duh!), it always strikes me as: 1. Passing the buck. (What if he tells you to get the Ascends and you get them and don't like them?) 2. Laziness. 3. Playing it safe. (A pro reviewer who writes for a magazine that takes a lot of advertising from many speaker companies might face some editorial pressure against too strongly recommending one speaker over others.) 4. Any combination of the above. His reply is especially disappointing given that you clearly stated that your personal auditioning options are limited to CC and BB. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 591 Registered: Mar-05 | the reason why I say you can't be disappointed timothy is that these guys are PAID to say whatever they are PAID to say. It is just wonderful to have all the fellows on this and other forums to give honest and unbiased opinions on stuff. I did not say what I said in support of the reply to your letter, just wanted to make that clear. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 258 Registered: Jul-04 | Timothy - maybe I missed it - aren't you going to pair the speakers with a sub? So, why the need for deeper bass? Oh, read it again and saw the sub will come later. Still, if a sub is coming within a few months you may have to spend more to get equivalent sound with better bass. I read a new review of the Paradigm studio reference 20s and they still sound good. I didn't give them a very long hearing at the store, but from all thorough reviews done they sound spectacular and are a great value - with "useable" bass down to 30hz I think the review said. Taller than the Ascends but not as wide. $800 list, maybe you can get them for $600/pair? BTW, my friend who did professional sound for a while listened to both the Axiom M22s and the Ascend 170s today and said the Ascends were clearly better: more clear and better bass. I don't think this is everyone's opinion but I respect his knowledge and experience. I like both s. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 259 Registered: Jul-04 | Hmm - ecoustics won't let me post "model" now? The last line should have read "I like both s." |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 260 Registered: Jul-04 | did it again "I like both m o d e l s." |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 208 Registered: May-05 | Gotta love censorship!!! It wouldn't let me post P P-2 (NAD's phono pre-amp). What is this world coming to? It will let you say shitty though. I guess their priorities are straight. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 335 Registered: Jun-05 | For one thing there is no since in going out spending big bucks on speakers if you are not going to do the same on electronics.What you really have to remember about the reviews other than the advertisements is they are using expensive gear with the speakers for the review,now how fair is it to judge $500 pair of speakers on $30,000 worth of equipment.Yeah they are gonna find flaws who would'nt,my 9 year old could,so Tim dont let it get you down the audio world is a cruel and unforegiven world. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 261 Registered: Jul-04 | Stu Pitt posted: "Gotta love censorship!!! It wouldn't let me post P P-2 (NAD's phono pre-amp). What is this world coming to? It will let you say though. I guess their priorities are straight." Ha! When I first read this on my blackberry it let you say s h i t t y, but now it won't! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 262 Registered: Jul-04 | hmm - won't let me say - - - -t-y now either |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 263 Registered: Jul-04 | ss-hh-ii-tt-yy My personal crusade, as a seminary graduate, is to use a four letter word on ecoustics! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 264 Registered: Jul-04 | Sorry about wasting all your bytes, folks. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 38 Registered: Jun-05 | "Timothy D., I understand your disappointment. Whenever you ask someone for an opinion on speakers and they tell you to go out and listen for yourself (duh!), it always strikes me as: 1. Passing the buck. (What if he tells you to get the Ascends and you get them and don't like them?) 2. Laziness. 3. Playing it safe. (A pro reviewer who writes for a magazine that takes a lot of advertising from many speaker companies might face some editorial pressure against too strongly recommending one speaker over others.) 4. Any combination of the above. His reply is especially disappointing given that you clearly stated that your personal auditioning options are limited to CC and BB" Hey Edster, you hit the nail on the head as far as my disappointment goes. When he basically gave me advice that was not really any advice...well, no advice that I haven't heard a thousand times before, I considered the fact that it might be a "conflict of interest" or something if he pointed me in the direction of a specific speaker. Perhaps he has friends in many places and does not want to be biased and show favoritism to one while alienating another? But still! Well I think I'm narrowing it down - I actually was able to hear the B&W speakers yesterday and I really liked them - I liked the way they sounded. I liked the way they looked. I liked how they looked like they were built very well. I liked the size of them. And, I think I liked the fact that they were front-ported, because I am not sure of how / where I will place them, and I am considering building an entertainment center / TV stand - because I am good with wood AND I'd like to get all 3 front speakers on the exact same plane across the front if I can. I don't know if I want to go with a really small speaker - such as the CBM-170, SB3, Diamond 9.1 or the m3Ti - but I don't know if it really matters how big they are. I want to hear the Mini Monitor and Monitor 3, the Chorus 706 S and the Image B25 - I think I'll be able to make a decision then. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Timothy, I understand your dissapointment. You asked for a breakdown of these speakers, and alls you got was a comment on one speaker lacking bass. This doesnt really suprise me, though. It sounds like he was afraid of saying what he really thinks of the speakers, like this one is too bright, this one has cabinet resonances etc etc. Not saying all of them have problems, because I haven't heard them all. You could try emailing him privately, or contacting him another way so his remarks aren't public. I think a good way to start would be comparing the PSB's to B&W, as to me both of these sound rather different- PSB's sound more musical, and B&W's more analytical. Ascend would also be a good comparison against the PSB's. At least this way you will know which sound suits you the best, and then people could make recommendations according to that. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 237 Registered: May-05 | Good comparison of the PSB's and B&W's Somed00d. I was trying to put it into words, but you hit the nail on the head. B&W's are very good speakers, don't get me wrong, but I find them a little dull, where as the PSB's have a little more soul. I guess analytical vs musical is better wording. The difference isn't night and day, but is definately there if you listen for more than a few minutes. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 39 Registered: Jun-05 | So it sounds like you guys prefer the PSB's? Have you heard the Kef Q1? What about the Focal JMlab Chorus 706 S? What do you think? |
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Bronze Member Username: Look4sunPost Number: 67 Registered: Sep-04 | PSB (Image line) vs KEF Q1 vs JMLab Chorus 706 ? I think the KEF is superior above that especially when dealing with music. The Kef with the special tweeter design embedded into their mid cone could throw the sound remarkably. . The only drawback I think, is the special care with the cone. This is my personal opinion. I would like to add into the bookshelf comparison, the Monitor Audio Bronze B2 and Silver S2, and the Quad 11L and Quad 12L. Anybody could give the comparison between these speakers ? |
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