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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-05 | Hi, I have read some of the threads in this section and I have a few questions. 1. Which is better, 12 AWG or 16 AWG or 18 AWG? Isn't a thicker speaker wire better? 2. In a room of dimensions 14'9" by 15'8" (15'8" being the wall where the TV will mount), how many ft from the ceiling should a KEF 1005 5.1 speaker system be wall mounted? (I am thinking 2-3 ft from the ceiling to avoid reverberation off the ceiling) 3. The receiver will probably be an Onkyo TXSR602 with an output of 85 watts and the KEF 1005s are 100 watts per channel. Is that normal? (I heard that this prevents speaker burnout) 4. In the same room dimensions how many ft of speaker wires would be required? Please help and thank you. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 258 Registered: Feb-05 | Me The Newbie: Given the equipment you listed 16 AWG should be fine for runs of less than 50'. If a larger guage doesn't cost much more go for it instead, larger wire= less resistance although we are talking miliOhms in difference. The speakers (front)should flank the tv screen as closely as possible other wise if the were mounted up high above the screen your soundfield would be "detached" from the screen, which would be unatural. Perhaps you meant the surround speakers? If so then yes they should be wall mounted or on stands a couple of feet above your listening area. Speaker wattage ratings are generally meaningless, with the only real danger being from an amp or receiver going into clipping from not being able to supply enough power to the speakers at high volumes. The system you describe will be fine. Position your speakers where they need to be then run the length of wire to each speaker, don't worry about unequal lengths. Good luck! |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 245 Registered: May-05 | Newbie - "The receiver will probably be an Onkyo TXSR602 with an output of 85 watts and the KEF 1005s are 100 watts per channel. Is that normal? (I heard that this prevents speaker burnout)" Most speakers go bad because of under-powering, not over-powering. When a reciever is pushed beyond it's limits, it distorts, or "clips." Most people who don't know much about stereos think that the speakers can't handle the power when in fact the opposite is true - the amp is working too hard. This distortion is what kills a speaker, mainly the tweeters. If you listen at normal levels, you shouldn't have many problems with this. But if you listen at high volumes on a regular basis, then you may want to get a higher powered reciever. Another thing about receiver power - All receivers aren't rated the same way. Higher end companies give a truer rating, but lower end comanies generally inflate their power ratings to sell more receivers. Companies like NAD, Rotel, and Harman/Kardon give very accurate and true to life measurements, while companies like Sony, Yamaha, and Onkyo (sorry) generally give inflated ratings. This has been proven on a number of occasions by independant sources. I don't know much about the particular receiver you have and whether or not it's power rating is accurate or not. About the speaker wire - It is the subject of some contraversy, but wire is wire. Don't buy expensive wire because some joker told you one sounds better than the other. The only thing you should be concerned with is guage. There is a chart somewhere (google search should bring it up) about different levels of thickness for different run lengths. Also remember not to measure straight to the speaker, but how long the wire will actually be. If they are going in the walls, then you may need something else because of building codes, but I don't know much about that. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 666 Registered: Sep-04 | Don't buy expensive wire for that system. Although it would give some benefit, you'd be better off spending the money on better electronics or speakers. For example the 2005 is a much better speaker system than the 1005. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-05 | Thanks Eric. Do you have an idea about the true wattage of the Onkyo TXSR602? I haven't bought the receiver yet and Stu Pitt responded to my post saying Onkyo, Sony, Yamaha give inflated ratings. Stu Pitt, do you have proof of this? Frank, from what I read on the net, the 1005s are upgrades over the 2005s. Are they also smaller in size? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 250 Registered: May-05 | Newbie - I saw an independant review somewhere in this forum. It was a link in a discussion. I'll try my best to find it and others like it. If I can't, I'm sorry. I have no stake in anything you buy or any hidden agenda. I don't think anyone here will doubt that they are over-inflated. |
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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-05 | Stu, Given the 100 watts rating on my surround speakers, what should the wattage of an ideal receiver be? Any specific models you would recommend? By the way, I know you are only trying to help. I am only searching for the truth since I don't know it myself. Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 251 Registered: May-05 | Newbie -http://geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm?20055 This doesn't have the specific model you refer to. But it shows the difference between Onkyo's numbers and an independant source's. One or two of them are only off by a few watts, but some of them are insane - ONKYO TX-NR901 110w x 7; 50w measured ONKYO TX-DS696 100w; 46w measured YAMAHA RX-V730 75w x6; 38w (37.5 x6) measured YAMAHA RX-V440 75w x6; 34w measured I'm sure there are more things like this if I really looked hard enough. |
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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-05 | Thanks Stu. I appreciate the help. Any answers to my 11:07 am post? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 252 Registered: May-05 | The wattage rating on your speakers really doesn't really matter that much. It is very hard to over-power a speaker. It's not unheard of, just highly unlikely. I don't have too much experience with H/T receivers, but the brands that I would recommend looking into are Harman/Kardon, Rotel, and Arcam. I have no idea what your budget is like, but they are all priced differently - each company is generally more expensive than the next. A lot of people have very good things to say about these. People also talk about NAD AVR's, but they seem to have some QC problems. I own 2 channel NAD gear and can't reccomend it enough, but I would personally stay away from their AVR's (this will likely start another arguement). A great place to shop for Harmon/Kardon refurbished stuff is http://www.harmanaudiooutlet.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=HK Because you are buying from the manufacturer you're getting a full warantee as if it were brand new. You can also buy 'A-Stock' directly from them as well, but it's a few bucks more. Rotel and Arcam don't sell over the internet. Even if you find them on the net, don't buy them. The manufacturers don't honor the warantee if bought over the net. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 253 Registered: May-05 | I was typing during the 11:07 post. I would stay in the 100 - 150 watt category. This is just my opinion though. If you have a manufacturer with a "real" 85 watt rating (any of the above should be fine), you should be fine too. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 673 Registered: Sep-04 | Newbie The 1005 is the entry level. The 2005 is next level up, they're appreciably better than the 1005. Stu, those numbers are crazy. The one problem with power specs on amplifiers is that the spec is dependant on so many factors that it is possible to get some pretty strange results sometimes. I'm not poo-pooing the results but I would take them with a pinch of salt. My experience with the Onkyos and Yamahas is that they're usually plenty powerful enough. The Denons don't seem to get on with 4-ohm loads on the other hand. It's a shame that list is so old. It would be interesting to see how current models fare. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 254 Registered: May-05 | Frank - I think those are worst case examples, but they do show what can and does go on. Dollar for dollar, I don't think Onkyo can compete with H/K, Rotel, or Arcam. Some of the models are priced the same. Why buy an inferior product when he/she can get far more for the same amount of $$? Isn't that what were all chasing here anyway? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 255 Registered: May-05 | Frank - sorry to keep posting, but one more point - give or take 10% or so with the power ratings is one thing, but some are less than half of what they are advertised. No measurement is absolutely perfect, but in some of them you can't justify they are within some type of standard error of measure. |
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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-05 | Frank...what is the price on the 2005s? 1005s available for 300 something. |
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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-05 | Stu....please take a look. http://www0.shopping.com/xPP-Receivers-onkyo-7_1__thx_ex___dts_es__ http://www0.shopping.com/xPP-Receivers-harmon_kardon-7_1__thx_ex___dts_es__~S-21 3~OR-0 Note surround power on comparable receivers. |
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Bronze Member Username: EyeswideshutAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 51 Registered: Jul-05 | Stu- You might want to read the full reviews of the TX-SR501 and the HK 330 on S&V (where the numbers come from). While the HK can drive all channels with a little more power (not significant from a volume standpoint, and only because the Onkyo's protection mode kicks in after a little bit), the Onkyo can drive a single channel with more dynamic power, something that happens a lot more in real life practice. Also, while I cant prove it, I would be willing to bet the Tx-SR602 that Mr Newbie was looking at will probably at least outperform the 501, which didn't do too badly. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 258 Registered: May-05 | How much are you looking to spend? Which ones are you looking at? |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 67 Registered: Jun-05 | Newbie, the difference is that the HKs are notoriously conservative with their power ratings, and all HKs are high-current designs. They have a much better design than any of the other mass-market companies, and you will never have a shortage of power unless you are running at VERY high volumes for extended periods of time. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 260 Registered: May-05 | Thanks again Art's evil clone. Why start with me? I told you I love before. Can't we just get along? |
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Bronze Member Username: EyeswideshutAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 52 Registered: Jul-05 | Did I say something bad? I'm not lying. |
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New member Username: MethenewbiePost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-05 | Stu, Compare TXSR602's price from the links above to similarly priced HKs. Ziggy, which HKs with better quality are around the same price as the Onkyo TXSR602 around $300? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 261 Registered: May-05 | Newbie - I really don't have much first hand experience with these receivers. If you post in the receivers category, I'm sure that people with more first hand knowledge than I have will help out. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 262 Registered: May-05 | newbie - The onkyo ranges in price from $250-$500. Like I said, I don't know much about these first hand, but with all things being equal, I'd take a H/K over Onkyo anyday. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 69 Registered: Jun-05 | Newbie, at around $300 your only real option among the current models from HK is the AVR235, which you can get new for ~$350 or factory refurb from Harman Direct on ebay for ~$275 (I paid $261 for mine). If you go the refurb route, and don't mind a slightly older model, you can get the AVR330 (1 step up, 1 model back) under $300, and you might even be able to get the 430 for not much more. |