Non amplified music experiences
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4605 Registered: May-04 | The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??" Have at it. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 361 Registered: Dec-03 | Does that actually happen? Even when an artist plays at the local book or record shop they've got an amp somewhere. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4609 Registered: May-04 | Heard it today. Chamber music. Violin, cello and piano. Not an amplifier in sight. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 365 Registered: Jun-05 | Well seeimg that most people dont listen to chamber music and every thing we use has a amp.So, this thread seems pretty pointless. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 175 Registered: Dec-04 | About 25 years ago, I visited the Trent Bridge Inn, near to the Nottingham cricket ground, at lunchtime. I was somewhat surprised to find that a string quartet were playing some Shostakovich pieces. Such things are not usual, in my experience. (it is usually Mozart). {grin} I was shocked that nobody except me seemed to notice them? The sound volume seemed fairly low. That seemed odd as well. I played violin from age 8 to 10, then gave up, because I was useless. But I know that the volume of a violin cannot be changed much. The fact that a violin, played in a concert hall, can sound so amazingly loud, is obviously due to the accoustics of the hall and the silence of the audience. These observations are probably very obvious, but worth making, I think, in the terms of what we hear of live music.  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1305 Registered: Feb-05 | Tim, you need to get out more. I visit Seattle often. You have ample opportunties to listen unamplified music there. TW, we host the Chintimini Chamber Music Festival and the Bach fetsival here and they do quite well. There isn't alot of unamplified music these days but it can be found. I think many people don't want to have to listen to music. They want their music much as they want their other entertainment served to them in a way that allows them to think as little as possible. TV and video's. Calgon take me away. With unamplified music, not just because of the genres that tend to be unamplified but also the typical volume, one must actually listen to hear all of it. Unamplified music has a lower noise floor and greater total dynamics. It can be so quiet that you can barely hear it, then roar to life as in a Mahler Symphony. Bedtime, must work tomorrow. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 128 Registered: Apr-05 | When we lived in Mexico City, we used to go to a Polish restaurant called "Mazurka." To say it was elegant was an understatement. Very soon after being seated, a tuxedoed waiter would bring each lady at the table an orchid -- and pin it on them. Then each person at the table was served ice cold vodka in a frosted shot glass -- on the house. The food was excellent. And there was always a four or five piece ensemble playing chamber music -- mostly Chopin. Interestingly enough, this restaurant also catered all of the meals for Pope John Paul II on his several trips to Mexico City. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 176 Registered: Dec-04 | " every thing we use has a amp.... this thread seems pretty pointless" A lot of us do hear live music! It may be pointless to you, though. So it will be okay if you don't read it. Regards, diablo |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3474 Registered: Dec-03 | "Does that actually happen?" "every thing we use has a amp" ....? A moment's thought: what is it that the amplifier amplifies? Don't know if you're anywhere near an HMV shop, diablo - down here, there is an amazing Shostakovich Qt. complete cycle, on CD, currently on special offer. Ridiculous price. I paid a bit more for it, last year. Apart from the music, and the performance, it is a two-microphone, modern, live recording, with very natural sound. Not an amp in sight. Or within earshot. Brilliant. "But I know that the volume of a violin cannot be changed much. " I heard the Bruch concerto on Saturday. Along with 5,000 others. Not an amp in sight. Great dynamics, but the soloist was bit quiet if one is used to spot-miking, as we all are, from recordings and broadcasts. If you are near a radio on Wednesday p.m. you can check it out... |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 177 Registered: Dec-04 | John A. Will look out for the Shostakovich. I recorded the Bruch concerto on my (lossless)DVR and quite enjoyed it on replay. The violin part (Leila Josefowicz) was very well conveyed, but the sound of the Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra was not too good. Sounded very 'muddled' on my system. Orchestras at the RAH usually sound better than that. I've only ever heard solo violinists in smaller halls than the RAH, when the sound volume seems adequate. Regards, diablo |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4611 Registered: May-04 | T'wan - Just when I think your score on the stupidity scale couldn't rise any higher ... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1652 Registered: Jan-05 | I recently ate at a restaurant that had a mariachi band. Does that count?? HEH http://www.elmariachi.com/images/mariachi_smileys.gif |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3479 Registered: Dec-03 | diablo, You got it. Did you record the whole concert? Can I have a copy...?! (smiley, but serious!). The balance was the other way around in the hall; the violin was indistinct and a bit "muddied". At least where we were. Probably a promenader in the front row would have got a better balance. The orchestra was really, really good. Probably Leila J was spot-miked for the broadcast. In life, she sounded - and looked - just great. Did you record part 2....? All subwoofer addicts should go and hear - or, rather, feel - the RAH organ, and so quickly realise the futility of trying to put that sound in you living room. It shook the whole circle. And that was playing quiet. My god, what an awesome sound was part 2.... If you ever meet any of those RLPO people up your way, or the Chester choir, buy them a drink or something. Please. They were magnificent. Totally. BTW The Rubio Quartet. On "Brilliant Classics". End of plug! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 368 Registered: Jun-05 | And Diablo I never said I didnt listen to live music,their is amplified live music you know?maybe you should read what I posted a little better,it would be ok if you went back to read it again. Regards,Tawaun |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 550 Registered: Oct-04 | Maybe... Go. don't reply in vague details, only speak of what you have extensive knowledge of Go. make sure you re-read your post several times or it will be disected in order to better illustrate you a fool. Go. My Rantz is standing by to back me up so don't try to argue anything I say. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 178 Registered: Dec-04 | Did you record the whole concert? Can I have a copy...?! (smiley, but serious!). I'll see what I can do. Have had mixed results when copying from DVR to pc and burning DVDs.Will send an email if I have success, but don't hold your breath. I heard the RAH organ in James Macmillan's 'A Scotch Bestiary for organ and orchestra'. Not my usual type of music (I don't think I'm alone here, the orchestra probably outnumbered the paying punters), but it held my attention. Organ came across very well, vibrated the floor even without subwoofers. I'm sure my neighbours wouldn't want me to get any! Tawaun, Are you still reading this pointless thread? Rgds, diablo |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 363 Registered: Dec-03 | "Tim, you need to get out more. I visit Seattle often. You have ample opportunties to listen unamplified music there." Like Benaroya? I've heard the Seattle Symphony before. Livened up the thread didn't it? ;-) |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 728 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun buys more speakers than all of us combined. His input, along with his grammar, should be regarded as godlike. I know of no other self proclaimed audiophile who could pick apart all the pro's and con's of high end speakers and turn right around and praise $80 SDAT's as being in the same league. You never know what a man like that has been through. Jan you should be careful, anyone with a username like Tbomb scares the poopy outta me. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 729 Registered: Mar-05 | sorry I had to add this, it's taken off the SDAT website describing a speaker they produce and I swear Tbomb wrote it: SB-800 SB-E800 Hi-Fi Speaker 3 way 500 watts base reflex, Those yellow Fiber glass cone don't just look good, they also delivers a very deep and powerful sound. Dual 6.5 woofer even make better base that a 10 inch woofer. swear, word for word look for yourself,rotflamo! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4614 Registered: May-04 | Just when I think t'wan couldn't score any higher on the stupid, rude and just utterly ignorant scale ... I'm wondering what will happen if I insult him a few more times. What's he gonna do to me? Complain to the administrator that I can spell and use punctuation? twan, if you respond to this I'll know you're reading this pointless thread. What do you think that will do to your score? Why don't you just move on to another thread? You've made your threats; now just go away from here. If you want to take me on again, start another new thread. Don't mess this one up too. Come on, twan, it's rude to make people on this thread read that you don't like me. We're trying to have a conversation on this thread. OK? |
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Lei Pang Unregistered guest | sorry I had to add this, it's taken off the SDAT website describing a speaker they produce and I swear Tbomb wrote it: What a stupid childish statement, if you do not know the facts please just shut your mouth! Stupid kid...Maybe you could give us some lessons as how to build a speaker? You don't really think that two 6.5 speakers can sound better than one 10" when designed properly? And no, T-bomb did not write that, it was a Chinese colleague who has made an incredible effort to try to learn a different language, maybe you could write something for us in Chinese? Ignorant! |
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Bronze Member Username: PbdrPost Number: 40 Registered: Apr-05 | So Tawaun, any thread you don't like you first seem to make an inane comment, maybe poke a little fun at the thread starter, then get pissed off when people don't like your comments. You get all huffy and start telling certain people not to talk to you, calling them names and even threatening people. I have seem you degerate to such name-calling that the thread was removed (from ecoustics!), if you don't like the tread, just stay off. Is this your grown up way of trying to get attention? It may be true that most people don't listen to chamber and/or orchestral and/or opera, or any of many forms of unamplified music, but a lot of people do (and who would think that they might be posting on a forum for audio enthusiasts). Where do you get off deciding that the whiole thread is pointless? Let others talk if you have nothing good to say. Also, it is technically illegal to threaten someone with bodily harm, and you have done it twice (at least) on an open forum. Better hope Jan doesn't feel litigious... Oh, and please tell me you don't like me again; it validates me. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4618 Registered: May-04 | The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??" Have at it, not each other. |
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TW critic Unregistered guest | Regarding TW: The threats alone should be enough to get him banned from the forum... |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 274 Registered: May-05 | Does someone here need a lawyer? Do I have to separate you all again? Chamber music is good. Mariachis are just lovely, thanks for sharing, Paul, I really missed you. LOL Unamplified music exists, even in Spokane. So, if it's here, it's got to be everywhere, if you do a little listening. Now, what was the question again, so we can get back on track? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 364 Registered: Dec-03 | I made my initial response because while there are opportunities for non-amplified music it usually requires a good environment, such as an acoustically treated audiotorium, etc.. I was near the Courthouse and there was a jazz quartet playing. I thought this a good opportunity to catch some nice music and take away something I could post here. Unfortunately there were these poles topped with black boxes that said Peavy on them. Oh well. Listening to a full orchestra in a good theater is truly a treat. The dynamics are incredible. |
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Bronze Member Username: PbdrPost Number: 41 Registered: Apr-05 | So, I haven't listen to a whole lot of "unamplified" music, maybe a handful of classical concerts, but I am curios if those of you that do think it can be accurately reproduced with HiFi gear. Do you need absolute high-end equipment, or can "decent" gear do it? |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1658 Registered: Jan-05 | I've found the perfect receptical to contain your chamber music. http://www.ocean-institute.org/edu_programs/materials/P/Org/Hist/SFE_ChPot.htm |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 365 Registered: Dec-03 | "Do you need absolute high-end equipment, or can "decent" gear do it?" That's up to the listener. If your goal is to perfectly replicate the experience of a live performance you may never reach that goal. This is exactly the question that made the "Do you listen?" thread the second longest thread that I'm aware of on this forum. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1308 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm sorry this post is late but I had to go to work this morning after I read Jan and TW's exchange. That exchange really bothered me and I had to think about it on my way to work. It seems that there was exponential growth in the responses of both parties to the dispute. TW simply stated that he thought that this thread was "pointless", that was met by Jan with a post that would have put most of us on the defense, "T'wan - Just when I think your score on the stupidity scale couldn't rise any higher ..." Hmm, seems a little out of proportion to TW's original post. TW went off the richter with a violent response that should have him banned from the forum. I am however disturbed that one of our most knowledgable contributors is calling someone "stupid" for having a an opinion other than his. I'm not trying to start anything, I just find it regretable that such an avoidable exchange happened. |
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Lei Pang Unregistered guest | I am not surprised at Mr. Vigne's comments at all; he seems to be a very discourteous individual https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/150542.html |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 996 Registered: Feb-04 | Art wrote: TW simply stated that he thought that this thread was "pointless" He stated a bit more than that. "every thing we use has a amp.So, this thread seems pretty pointless." That statement shows either a lack of knowledge of anything acoustic, or more likely baiting when preceeded by " Well seeimg that most people dont listen to chamber music". I could see why Jan took offense. If TW had nothing to contribute, then why did he, except to bait? He himself gets deeply offended when people he dislikes post on the threads he starts. I don't suppose anyone needs proof of that. Face it. TW declared some of us his enemies. This was just a blatant attack on one of them. He should get banned for the threat of violence. On the positive side, he has shown his true colours for all to see. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 997 Registered: Feb-04 | joseph coulson wrote: sorry I had to add this, it's taken off the SDAT website What is their web site? |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 37 Registered: Jul-05 | www.sdatgroup.com |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4623 Registered: May-04 | Pang, my response to you is on that same thread. If you're sticking around to insult me; take your own advice and get to know me first. TO DO OTHERWISE IS DISCOURTEOUS! You don't want to be discourteous; do you, Pang? Art - You're entitled to your opinion; but you're wrong. Now, if twan doesn't show back up to disrupt the thread again, can we move on? The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??" What do we have to say about music? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3482 Registered: Dec-03 | diablo, Thanks. I will first try to catch the stereo FM broadcast of the recording of the performance; this is on Wednesday, starting at 2 p.m., not the best time. BTW the RAH was full to capacity on Saturday. Jan, Let me state for others that this thread grew from Do you listen where some things are said about music. T8, "while there are opportunities for non-amplified music it usually requires a good environment, such as an acoustically treated audiotorium, etc" Again, I disagree. Today I heard a guy playing bagpipes in a street, in the open air. Not an amp in sight. He still drew a crowd. It was loud. He could play. It was good. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1310 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan - Where was I wrong? I've looked over my post and it looks accurate. I guess I must be stupid as well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4630 Registered: May-04 | Christoncrutches, Art! Do you want to discuss music or twan? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1311 Registered: Feb-05 | Peter, you are right TW did say more. Putting it into context really makes it sound even more inocuous. I feel that you guys are missing something here. I will stop posting here about it and send you and Jan personal messages later when I get home. Jan please refrain from a responding until I can send you a message later. Thank you. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 280 Registered: May-05 | Are there forum mediators or just moderators? Maybe I should start up a new consulting business, Audiophile Forum Mediators, Inc. Do you think eCoustics would pay me for this? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 736 Registered: Mar-05 | Art , you and Jan are the last two people on this forum that should be at each other. You two exemplify knowledge in this field and please stop. There is plenty for others. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 284 Registered: May-05 | I'm with J.C. on this one, Art and Jan. Anyway, I think Jan and T-Man got off on the wrong foot and there's plenty of stones thrown, which would need to be retrieved, in order to get back to civility there. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4633 Registered: May-04 | The request was made: "Maybe a thread asking people to describe their experiences/impressions of 'non-amplified' music could be useful??" What do we have to say about music? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 371 Registered: Dec-03 | "Today I heard a guy playing bagpipes in a street, in the open air. Not an amp in sight. He still drew a crowd. It was loud. He could play. It was good." That's a good point. Did he have anything surrounding him to reinforce the pipes? Of course, with pipes you may not need much. I've noticed the street musicians will usually pick a spot where their instrument sounds best. Often it includes standing in front of an entrance to a building with a high ceiling and hard surfaces. Almost like a horn with reverb. |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 40 Registered: Jul-05 | It's just better. I listened to someone playing a flute today. Then I thought about the Jethro Tull greatest hits CD I had been listening to earlier (which is by the way, very very good for those who like that type of music). No comparison. Then again, my system is far from top of the line. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 741 Registered: Mar-05 | I have that cd, it's really good. |
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Ragazzo Unregistered guest | I do agree, Jan is many times very rude to people indeed, I do not understand why many of you don't see that. He is very smart though, plays it very well, smooth talker he is, audio knowledge? Yes, granted, vast even but please be careful if you disagree with him, there is a sign that reads, "do not even dare" I know I will get heat on this one but the truth shall be said. And frankly I do not care |
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New member Username: BumblebeePost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-05 | For me, live and unamplified music takes me somewhere I know I've never been to, EFFORTLESSLY. That is because I KNOW that it is the REAL THING. I can say that my reaction is, first and foremost, based on that fact, no matter how good or bad the music is. Live and amplified music takes me somewhere I know should be, EFFORTLESSLY. The fact that I KNOW that it is LIVE, I dance, I sing, I shout, I enjoy. The AMBIANCE, more than anything else, makes me so, no matter how good or bad the music is. My gears give me music. It's good when I want to relax and sometimes, or many times, not too good when I'm too critical. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1671 Registered: Jan-05 | Since we're on the topic, I have decided to boycott purchasing any loudspeakers until someone builds a behemoth intermediately priced speaker worthy of my home theater. Ohhhhhh boy, this might last forever!!! HEH |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 180 Registered: Dec-04 | Live bagpipes. Not something you hear every day, fortunately. I have heard them quite often though. One particular occasion stands out in my mind, but not because of the quality of the playing. Picture the scene. It is New Years Eve. The setting is the bar of a small hotel in the Forest of Bowland. There is a very big Christmas tree in one corner, must have been 12 feet hight and 8 feet broad. There are logs burning in the fireplace. A cat is curled up, fast asleep, absorbing the warmth. The customers are sat at tables around the sides of the room, absorbing warm English beer. Into the room comes a Scottish piper. Kilt, sporran, dirk etc. - the full works. Customers a little surprised, not expected. He starts up the drones. The cat's ears twitch. The playing starts . The cat now springs to his feet and tries to run out the room. His way is blocked by the piper. He jumps onto a table, then runs around the wall -- literally -- at great speed, if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes then I wouldn't have believed it possible. At the end of three walls there is nowhere for the cat to go, except for the tree. He jumps onto it. The Christmas tree wobbles, for what seems like a very long time, then comes comes crashing down. It was very funny. I don't remember how good that piper was, but playing the Scottish pipes in a confined space is usually a bit overpowering. The raucous sound needs to be a hundred feet away and in the open air, in my opinion. I seem to recall that the Scottish bagpipe was once listed on an army inventory under "offensive weapons" - though that may be an urban myth. Northumbrian Pipes on the other hand, have a much mellower tone and well suited to indoor playing -- but only in the hands of a good player. The sound seems sort of 'enveloping', much less easy to pinpoint the source than with most other instruments, e.g. guitar. Regards, diablo |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3483 Registered: Dec-03 | Tawaun, I have been exchanging opinions with Jan for some time on this forum. I am sure he is no racist. He lives in Texas - but he has no time for the rednecks there. That is as clear as day. Jan got angry because it looked, to him, like you insulted him and his thread, for no reason he could see. It looked to him like you were just out to cause trouble. Calling you "stupid" was stupid, and his way of defending himself. Just try a minute to back off and see that different people are entitled to different points of view; don't go on the attack until you can see clearly who is the enemy - you got the wrong guy this time. When you find the right guy, you will find a lot of people on you side, all colours. Most likely Jan, too. (You can count me in too for what it's worth). I really think that. If we are ever going to get rid of racism for good, that is the only way, in my opinion. diablo, Great story! Yes, there are "outdoor" instruments and "indoor" instruments. Bagpipes included. The guy I saw was playing elbow-pumped pipes, not Scottish pipes (which are inflated by mouth). He was not wearing tartan or anything. I think they were Irish pipes, but that's just a guess. Yes, I also understood Scottish pipes were military, originally, for signalling, like trumpets (bugles) and drums. Anyone - how come our posts have been put under a new thread title? I did not post under "Non amplified music experiences"! Timn8ter. You are correct about musicians using natural acoustics to their advantage, but I think that is not the intended point! Can we change the title to "Not electronically amplified" or something.....?! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4639 Registered: May-04 | "Effortless". I've heard that word before! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 287 Registered: May-05 | Hey, I've got great respect for T-Man, great knowledge, poor typist. My wife can't type or use a computer worth a darn but she's one of the brightest, most well read, knowledgeable people I know (NO COMMENTS HERE PAUL!!!!). Anyway, the point being that no one should be judged by their ability to type or how that impacts their ability to convey ideas. Rather, the ideas should be inspected to see whether there is merit there, fair enough? Jan, IMHO, did a no-no in using the "S" word, but I think this battle started on a couple of other threads and Jan's patience had been exceeded. SO, everyone, including you T-Man, needs to cut Jan some slack. I've watched this thing between Jan and T-Man degenerate or escalate, depending on your point of view and it seems a little silly. T-Man got off on the wrong foot with a couple of people BUT we continued to follow along, he demonstrated some knowledge of audio and hi-fi and he began to provide useful opinions and thoughts, POSSIBLY, too strongly put forth in some cases but, hey, in my profession sometimes you have to be overly assertive to make your point. Also, sometimes I had to do that just to grow up from very humble circumstances, where my opinions and thought processes were discounted because of the messenger or the way the message was presented rather than the message itself. Likewise, I've followed along on several of Jan's threads and I consider myself well read, reasonably articulate across many, varied subjects, EXCLUDING AUDIO I MIGHT ADD, and Jan simply amazes me with his breadth and width of knowledge. He's engaging, has integrity and got a good sense of humor. Anyone following along on "Do you listen" will note that most of those qualities are those I look for in music, amplified or not. So, I guess that also makes Jan "musical." Anyway, I always take too long to make a point, it's a longstanding failing, I'm afraid. I just think Jan and T-Man need to step back, recognize that each of them have expertise and information to share, and they need to agree to do it with everyone, and each other, in a more polite, respectful way. OKAY, GROUP HUG!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4642 Registered: May-04 | "I guess that also makes Jan 'musical'." Thank you, David. Not everyone appreciates it when I toot. My word! I've just read this thread from beginning to end and it now looks like a Monty Python routine. And now for something completely different ... Anyone have anything to say about "unamplified"/"non-amplified"/"not electronically amplified" music played without the assistance of an amplifier? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 383 Registered: Jun-05 | Jan im gonna be the one to try to end this fued between you and I,but you have to do your part to,and dont take this as a sign of weekness.I am sorry for all of the names I have called you I looked back over the threads and Im just as guilty as you are for all of the nasty coments.You are a very knowlegeable person as I about audio and other things as well,as i am also,but if I dont agree with you on something Im still gonna dissagree with you and hopefully it does not esculate like it has lately{yes I am a bad typer Dave}. |
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Bronze Member Username: IknownuttinOttawaCanada Post Number: 23 Registered: Jul-05 | If you enjoy chamber music, then you really should take a trip to the great white north ;o). Ottawa is the host city of the world's largest Chamber Music festival. This year there are over 120 concerts during the 14 days event (http://www.chamberfest.com/english/index.html). Speaking of Shostakovich, the Borodin Quartet are performing the Complete Shostakovich Quartet over a period of 5 days in the Dominion Chalmer church which seats over 5,000 yet still has excellent accoustics (if massive organs are your thing, it has a 5,157 pipe Casavant). Oh yeah, no amplifiers in sight. |
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New member Username: ZorroPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-05 | Dave, You should sit at the U.N.'s meetings! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1682 Registered: Jan-05 | chamber music belongs and should be played in a large 'chamber pot'. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1007 Registered: Feb-04 | Paul, It's funny when you're funny, but that isn't. Please limit your jokes to boutique speakers and WAF. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1684 Registered: Jan-05 | The UN?? LOL.... I guess one worthless forum deserves another. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 520 Registered: Nov-04 | yes stop paul. its annoying now. sound like a broken record. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 289 Registered: May-05 | T-Man, Saying "I'm sorry" is never a sign of weakness. Anyone who thinks differently is just a little boy and needs to grow up. (OK, I'm kidding!!!) But, I've learned in 50 years that many times the testerone gets ahead of the brain and leads to saying "I'm sorry" often, just ask my wife. Typing skills aside, I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share opinions. Jan, I enjoy your opinions and comments, (great sense of dry humor - my favorite kind) even though they often go over my windshield, as they say. I appreciate the gathering and absorption of knowledge, from any and all sources. Back on topic now, I enjoy unamplified music. There's a pureness to it that is difficult, no, impossible to fully capture with equipment. I listened last night, very late I might add, to a somewhat muted Phil Collins concert (hey, I wanted to hear "live" music." The music had so many amplifiers, plus amplified and otherwise altered electric guitars and, I'm sure, a couple of mixing boards or more. The end result, didn't sound like music anymore. It was frustrating because I know what electric and acoustic guitars sound like and these didn't sound like either. I went from 5 channel sound to "direct" and there was some improvement in the quality of the music; tried stereo - about equal to "direct" and finally turned it off because even Phil's voice was amplified and altered - (I've heard him in concert and this wasn't him.) So, when I can listen to live music, it gives be a barometer (weather aside) to determine how my sound system reproduces the actual instruments. So, chamber music, live orchestra in the park (Yep, it's amplified) but it's pretty dang "real" because all they're doing is amplifying and there's still the "real" sounds of real instruments, mariachi bands (this for Paul) is good. How was that for a seque back onto topic? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 292 Registered: May-05 | I couldn't do the U.N. Way too many folks with issues and NEW YORK, AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH. I'm a southern boy, So. Cal. that is, and I could never move to the evil, east coast, well, unless the Dodgers move back, then we'll talk. So, asides aside, back to Jan's question: "Anyone have anything to say about "unamplified"/"non-amplified"/"not electronically amplified" music played without the assistance of an amplifier?" besides me and John Doe, BTW, I think you were my father. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 745 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul, lmao at the UN joke, good one. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3488 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree with Dakulis about T. A. Williams and J. Vigne. These guys know some things. I will go along with most of the Dakulis post, except the bit about the group hug........ Paul - We got the chamber pot joke first time. You don't have to spell it out. Try the Beethoven String quartets. If you are not deaf, keep listening until the penny drops. When it does, you'll change your mind. If ever the UN catches up with Beethoven (doubtful), the world will be a better place. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 208 Registered: Apr-05 | I think the amplification has a lot to do with the type of music as well as the venue, as it has been mentioned. There are a lot of jazz clubs in Chicago than don't use much amplification for the musicians. They also play in smaller venues. Blues clubs however do because of the type of instruments they play. I prefer jazz without amplification frankly. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 293 Registered: May-05 | Stof, If I'm listening to live jazz, I prefer no amplification as well. Unfortunately, not very common where I live now. Still enjoy any jazz, anytime, because even when amplified, it's usually pretty unobtrusive amplification. Then again, big band, old style jazz was not amplified hardly ever, except vocals and there's some great old vinyls lying around that still sound great. Much fun. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1687 Registered: Jan-05 | It must be a really exciting music if the climax is a falling change.........HEH |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 209 Registered: Apr-05 | Probably the most profound musical experience of my life was in 1988 when attending a Sting concert during his tour of "Nothing like the Sun" album. Branford Marseilles played on his band at the time. He stood stage right and had 5-6 different horn instruments in front with no microphone. At times during the concernt sting would just sit back and listen to Branford play solo and he played so exquisitly that it left the crowd breathless. Off course the Accoustics at the wonderful Masonic Temple in Detoit did not hurt. I don't think I have been to a concert with a more diverse crowd of young and old, black and white enjoying the same music. |
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Anonymous | Paul said, "It must be a really exciting music if the climax is a falling change.........HEH" So Paul, do you normally pay with paper money? ROTFL |
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Bronze Member Username: IknownuttinOttawaCanada Post Number: 24 Registered: Jul-05 | >besides me and John Doe, BTW, I think you were my father. LOL When people used to ask me if I had any kids my answer was usually "none that I know of... " now I have to change that ROFL ;o) Although if your profile is accurate, then I would guilty of traveling in time... Michael J Fox eat your heart out ;o) PS we seems to appreciate the same brand of car, I drive an Integra. Now back to our regularly scheduled program... My city for some strange reason is awashed with concerts, there are 7 music festivals during the summer season (Jazz, Blues, Folk, Chamber, Fringe, Franco and Busking) and come winter time there are a multitude of musical series (guitar, choirs, classical) not to mention the National Art Center and the 2 non professional orchestra. My favourite venue is one of the more intimate churches that host some of the guitar and classical ensemble/quartets series... the acoustics are spectacular. I've never paid much attention to the bassoon before hearing one in this venue. Violin, viola, cello take on a whole new life. I hear new timbres and colour from instruments that I could not even begin to hear in large venues. I can feel the resonnance of the instrument, sense each sympathetic vibrations and harmonics. I liken it to opera or choir versus listening to a trio singing 3 part harmony. Neither is better, just different. This is for a city with a population of about 1 million. The only thing we don't get are the huge concert tours where you don't appear on the map unless you can cram 40,000 fans. I've yet to attend one of those and say "wow, what great sound", it's more of a "wow, this is an amazing experience". Again neither is better just different. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4644 Registered: May-04 | "Then again, big band, old style jazz was not amplified hardly ever," And then along came a gentleman named Les Paul. If any of you have seen Woody Allen's film, "Sweet and Lowdown" with Sean Penn as Emmet Ray, the second best guitarist behind Django Rheinhardt, you will begin to understand the profound effect amplification had on jazz and popular music of the mid 1900's. A solo guitar has little chance to stand out against a drum set, horns, piano and an upright bass. Les Paul's invention changed all that and brought about the "Guitar Gods" of the rock groups. Which then led to all instruments being mic'd and amplified in many instances. The amplified guitar has become a fixture of blues and jazz whether the rest of the group is amplified or not. Even in a small club, at least the guitar is almost always electrified. Where would B.B. King be without Lucille? Could Buddy Guy do what he does with a hollow body guitar? Today's jazz/blues guitarist picks their amplifier to be a part of the instrument. Those performers using tube amplifiers even pick which tubes will give the best sound to their "instrument" and when most audiophiles would trash a set of tubes, the jazz guitarist thinks they are just getting broken in. Considering that the amplifier is then an extension of the instrument and is chosen as an instrument in its own right, should we consider the electric guitar and amplifier to be the whole instrument as the musician does? Would that then make the electric guitar and amplifier an "unamplified" source? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1315 Registered: Feb-05 | Charlie Christian with Benny Goodman. That's where it started. Look how many great jazz guitarists we've had since then. Grant Green, Kenny Burrel, Wes Montgomery and on and on. If we don't consider the guitar and amplifier to be amplified music then we have to look at the keyboard the same way. Clear back with Miles, Herbie and Chick were very choosy about mating their instruments and amplification. Miles would have it no other way. I believe we need to consider all amplified music as exactly that. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4649 Registered: May-04 | I see a slippery slope up ahead! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1320 Registered: Feb-05 | May I ask why? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4652 Registered: May-04 | The original question posed on this thread asked for impressions concerning "non-amplified" music. The sound we are going to hear from an acoustic guitar with no amplification is somewhat different than the sound coming from an electric guitar playing through an amplifier whether or not we consider the amp part of the instrument. Once we introduce an amplifier, we have to plug that up to a speaker - a transducer, the most variable part of any reproduction system - with all its inherent problems and virtues. Whether this becomes an issue will be determined by where this thread goes. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1322 Registered: Feb-05 | You said "Considering that the amplifier is then an extension of the instrument and is chosen as an instrument in its own right, should we consider the electric guitar and amplifier to be the whole instrument as the musician does? Would that then make the electric guitar and amplifier an "unamplified" source?" I said "If we don't consider the guitar and amplifier to be amplified music then we have to look at the keyboard the same way. Clear back with Miles, Herbie and Chick were very choosy about mating their instruments and amplification. Miles would have it no other way. I believe we need to consider all amplified music as exactly that." Did I miss something? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4657 Registered: May-04 | No, probably I did. If I understand correctly now, this thread would not concern itself with a small group with "non-amplified" acoustic instruments other than the electric guitar? What about an electric bass? An electric organ/piano? Where do we draw the line? Since I copied the request for this thread from "Do you listen", I'm not clear on what we can consider appropriate music for this thread. Certainly the effect on the music of amplifying some instruments to work in a club is different than amplifying all instruments to fill a stadium. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 297 Registered: May-05 | Jan, I have to go with Art on the Charlie Christian prior to Les Paul, but I'll dig out my "History of Jazz" textbook, written by Prof. Tanner and see if the answer lies somewhere. Now, is the question, do we consider amplified music of any kind, e.g. amplified acoustic or electric guitars, amplified bass or drums, "non-amplified" or is there another question out there that I missed? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 298 Registered: May-05 | BTW, picked up a video DVD last night of Ella Fitzgerald playing with Count Bassie's orchestra in 1979. Not fantastic production values, BUT, man could that woman sing. Can't recall, but 2nd or 3rd track was an old Billie Holliday song, WOW. Also, picked up the video DVD of Diana Krall, "Live in Paris." Much better production value, hey it's newer, and some great instrumentation and vocals, BUT THEN, I suspect most of you already knew that. Yes, everything was amplified, either by mics or amplifiers from what I could see. So, is any of this "non-amplified" music? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4661 Registered: May-04 | Dak (new nickname to satisfy John A.) - Uh, as far as I can figure, that's the question d'jour. Charlie Christian: "It seems natural that Charles Christian turned to the electric guitar; his solo approach was mature and ready to be heard along side horns and the rest of the band. Charles started off playing a loud unamplified guitar, an acoustic Epiphone. It was this guitar that allowed his solos to be heard before he was able to acquire the newly developed electric guitar. When he played a piece with a group, the rest of the band would play softly so he could be heard. Sometime before he was "discovered" Charles acquired one himself. A woman in Oklahoma City told Charles about a place where he could get one. He went down and bought his first electric from Lee Thaggart who owned a music shop in Oklahoma City. He made payments he could afford to finance the purchase. Later, with his first check from John Hammond, to go to Los Angeles, he paid off the balance. His next electric guitars were furnished after he joined Benny Goodman. The second was a beautiful, big white Gibson guitar (Charlie preferred Gibsons). This guitar was cherished by his family who kept it after he died, but in the 1950s it was stolen from their home." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Christian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Paul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_guitar |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 301 Registered: May-05 | Jan, actually I use DAK on occasion, it's my initials but Dak will work, too. Thanks for the history, you just saved me a few hours of looking through boxes to find that textbook. Although it might be worth it, the textbook had a 45 with some old recordings, we're talking studio recordings that Prof. Tanner obtained when he played with Glenn Miller's band and others. That may have been worth the look, assuming it survived the many moves and probably kids digging through boxes that i'm sure occurred. Well, to answer the question of the day, I think we're going to have to distinguish or draw the line somewhere. I would probably draw it at "non-amplified" music includes acoustic instruments that are miked as opposed to electronically altered instruments, e.g., electric guitars, drums and the like. Even though some are fairly realistic, it does change the tonality, timbre, and sound of the music they reproduce. But, that's just IMHO. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 82 Registered: Jun-05 | One of my absolute favorite recordings falls into this category: "Turnstyles and Junkpiles" by Pullman. It's just an excellent work of contemporary acoustic music - many varieties of acoustic string instruments - performed by people better known for much different music. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3492 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey, I knew "David";- I don't mind, just wanted anyone to be able to know who we are referring to! To some extent the history of western musical instruments, since about 1800, is a history of competition for increased volume, and, so, competition for attention. An instrument such as the lute made no concessions and compromises; you had to listen in order to hear it at all. At that time, the guitar was a small and fairly insignificant rhythm instrument, with just four strings, a bit like a modern ukelele, and its main strength was that it was easy to learn to play. No-one wrote anything for guitar, really, until Boccherini, but there is a wealth of earlier music written for the lute in its various forms, also it was the mainstay of improvised music. Electrical amplification was a whole new world of opportunity. Evolution, again. Going back to the question on "Maybe", I think the important thing to keep in mind is the idea of performance. Whether one or more instruments or voices in the performance is amplified, and how, does not really make much difference to the proposal that our audio systems are there to bring us a recorded (or broadcast) musical performance. If the distortion of an over-driven amp is part of the sound chosen, by the player, for an electric guitar, we still need good hifi to reproduce that sound accurately, imho. Again, I am only trying to be clear what we are talking about! So, please no flames for trying to get beyond genre chauvinism! We all like to talk about what we like. I know it is almost impossible, in music, not to take sides. That is part of its social function, it seems to me. Attempts to get away from that, and make "Absolute music" produced only stuff that no-one could understand, or listen to. And was linked with a worse kind of intolerance. It's a strange business. |
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