2 Skar VVX-12 enclosure build
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 71 Registered: Jul-11 | This thread is mainly for opinions on how a box should be designed for 2 skar 12" subwoofers. If you have any ideas on how to make one post it here. Currently joe durkham is designing one for me to build and I can't wait. |
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Gold Member Username: SomedonniedudeIllinois Braaap MX Post Number: 3234 Registered: May-07 | Do you already have the woofers? |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 74 Registered: Jul-11 | ...no Im going to build the box then order them around christmas or new years because im broke lol |
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Bronze Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 92 Registered: Jul-10 | lol...thats called planning |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 286 Registered: Apr-10 | Sorry if i missed an earlier thread but, what kind of music you listen to? What kind of space do you have (the more exact the better)? What amp will you use? |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 76 Registered: Jul-11 | My bad I shouldve included that in the beginning. Mainly rap but now Im starting to change over to dubstep and techno. The space is: 4 feet or less for the length 2 feet or less for width 2 feet or less for height The amp is going to be a sundown audio sax-1200d. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 523 Registered: Oct-10 | So 48 x 24 x 24... maybe you should have gotten 2 15's for 5 cubes each. No matter what you listen to, you might as well give them their optimal spaces. Google linear team's online WINISD calculator and use the VAS, QTS, and FS specs to find the optimal space & tune (optimal meaning response IE - a flat resopnse of .707 AKA a linear curve of frequency out put) - it'll have a hump at the cabin gain area (35-45 Hz), but this should get you a nice curve, getting the most out of it. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 77 Registered: Jul-11 | I gave the dimensions that I can work with, not actually the size I want to use. Plus the deal came with either 2 10" or 2 12" so I went with the 12" ones. ...your speaking greek to me O.o plus I wanted a design but thanks |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 866 Registered: May-09 | Ok, so I found the time to update a bit my code DO NOT build on this specs for now or at least have them checked or check them yourself, I am posting them to listen to people thoughts on it. The following image just shows how everything should be assembled:  Enclosure Specifications: Fb = 30 Hz Vb = 2 ft^3 (per chamber) Port Internal Width (A) = 2 in External Width = 36.69 in External Height = 14 in External Depth = 24 in Cut List: * All Dimensions in Inches. * Wood Thickness is 0.75 for all Parts. External Enclosure Parts: Front & Back = 36.69 x 14 Left & Right Sides + Center Divider (3 parts) = 22.5 x 12.5 Top & Bottom = 36.69 x 22.5 L Ports Internal Assembly Parts (2 of each) : Front to Back = 20.5 x 12.5 Extension = 8.27 x 12.5 I have not considered bracing for this design since the divider and the dual slots are helping but your opinions are welcome. There is an alternative I am considering and that is doing the same on a single chamber but bracing will be needed. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 78 Registered: Jul-11 | Thanks man, one question I read before that if you fiberglass the box itll make it stronger and better? Because I have alot of that over here at my house. You dont have to worry about the single port, anyway the daul port should make each sub operate being singled out and sound better. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 79 Registered: Jul-11 | Oh wait...those specs might be wrong?? :o |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 867 Registered: May-09 | I just want more opinions on them, you can check them yourself if you wish. The design is thoroughly tested but I would just like to see if it someone thinks it can be improved (Like double thickness in the sub mounting suface or flush mounting). Yes many people believe that less power is lost by going with seperate chambers but if you want to tune lower for example the single chamber would be necessary. I you mean damping the enclosure, Polyfill is best for doing that. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 287 Registered: Apr-10 | First ill say, I do like Joes design, the only issue (and the reason my deign isnt tuned higher) is when you have a driver with Low Fs like the Skar VVX-12, it gets pretty easy to develop a Spike or Peak due to port tuning gain. With joes design it seems like you would have an output spike just below 40Hz. If this is what you want then go for it, the design is good. But I will show you what I would do in your shoes. My design is tuned much lower, around 26Hz, simply to get a flatter response. My design also is double baffle.  Height: 15 in Depth: 22 in Width: 38.5 in Vb: 4.07 ft^3 after sub displacement. Fb: 26.3Hz Port Width: 3.5 in Port Height: 13.5 in Port Length: ~40 in Port Area: 47.25 in^2 Ill post more info in a bit, but I gotta make some dinner now so. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 869 Registered: May-09 | Right! and it's done on purpose! Here is the response plot for my design:  Its occurring at 36-37Hz, +4dB over baseline. This is a typical SPL aligment, caveman wants slamming bass. And one has to see what Skar recommends! 1.75cuft@36Hz!! Alonzo's aligment is for SQ, definitely not as loud but is very linear, this is the sort of design that I would choose for myself. I also have tried to make the build as simple as possible but I guess that two board layers on the front to setup flush mounted drivers would not make things much more difficult, so caveman would you go for that?? Also Alonzo I was wondering if that is SketchUp?? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 288 Registered: Apr-10 | Yea I was a bit confused about Skar's recommendation, it seems like a straight SPL alignment. Anyway, yea if you aren't looking for a flat response then that design might be good for you. And Joe's design still has great low-frequency extension. The program I use is actually called SolidWorks, its another program I use for school. What program did you use to make your 2D overhead screenshot? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 289 Registered: Apr-10 | Heres the dimensions and such for my design, just incase someone browsing the interwebs one day wants them, the picture with dimensions is too big to post as a pic so heres a link to it: http://tinypic.com/r/21l7789/5  |
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Gold Member Username: SomedonniedudeIllinois Braaap MX Post Number: 3235 Registered: May-07 | I wouldn't buy anything from skar audio. the owner Kevin is pretty worthless as far as customer service. Those woofers are built in china, so i wouldn't expect anything great out of the build quality. Plus if they did break, Kevin would likely blame it on you and not warranty it. Do some research about kevin schlenker on a few forums, I wouldn't trust the guy with a nickle. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 871 Registered: May-09 | Looks real nice with lighting effects. I actually modified an image from a JL sub manual, did it with Gimp..lol. But it's done simple like that to illustrate how to put together the parts in the cut list correctly for someone unfamiliar with this stuff. I really don't like non linear alignments not even for the 4 dB prize, but can't put at fault those aim for the shakes, for a while I was into SPL. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 80 Registered: Jul-11 | See thats what I like. A major group discussion, I like your design alonzo. I want the most bass but from looking its still going to get loud at 26 hz so idk which one to pick :/ Some donnie dude so youve bought from skar? And now knowing what he said the sub thats almost like these are the sa 12's would someone rather recommend those instead, just 20 dollars more?? |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 81 Registered: Jul-11 | Nevermind the skars get lower which is what I want, plus jacob fuller designed the skar so they shouldnt be to bad. Even with a triple stacked magnet :D |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 875 Registered: May-09 | http://carstereoforum.net/showthread.php?7011-SCREWED-by-Skar-1800woofers-subtil lis |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 82 Registered: Jul-11 | Wow that guy was a little complainer. Sorry but if that happened id just go look for some different amp, some people do that and its life. People just trying to make money thats all we try to do. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 877 Registered: May-09 | The list goes on with that Kevin guy, Somedonniedude was right. To the very least don't run those subs much more above rated, if in fact those subs are Chinese made I am pretty sure materials will fail in 2 - 3 years. |
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Gold Member Username: SomedonniedudeIllinois Braaap MX Post Number: 3236 Registered: May-07 | Yes I had purchased 2 amps from him, only to get money refunded. I just about sold my almost brand new 1750's cheap to someone because I thought I was gonna get those amps from skar, then i would have been really mad! He told me the amplifiers were broken and sent off for repair, then got on the forum and said they functioned fine and sold them for more money. One of the forum members who bought one of the amps got it and it wasnt functioning correctly. He just wanted to sell a broken amp for more money IMO. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 83 Registered: Jul-11 | Is jacob apart of these forums? Bc id love to bring him in here and ask him myself if HIS design is worth a crap. And if I should buy them or not, yes china did make them so did alot of my stuff. Not all stuff from china is junk just certain things bc of assembly lines. Or bring more people in here that has had experience with them. Skar was founded I think in 2010 if im not mistaken, yes no one can confirm if they actually last.But they can say how the vvx's operate and to them if they will last being over powered. It just feels like a biased forum now since somedonniedude came in and told his experience. You can go on youtube and ask people that run it well above 600 and they function perfectly, I just dont see the problem behind it. Yes the owner is shady but who cares when the subwoofers could be great. I do apologize to you somedonniedude for your experience but your the only one complaining about it. I see where your coming from and thats how some people are try to scam and make money. But thats just life. (if i offended anyone, sorry) |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 878 Registered: May-09 | "yes no one can confirm if they actually last." "Yes the owner is shady but who cares" "see where your coming from and thats how some people are try to scam and make money. But thats just life. " |
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New member Username: BarftyPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-11 | Please help I need my radio code for my renault model no: 22dc227/62f product no: fd0605160056547 thanks .... |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 84 Registered: Jul-11 | wtffffffff come on guy, make a post not use someone elses and throw everything off lol making fun of me joe? :'( |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 290 Registered: Apr-10 | well judging from what has been said about Skar and kevin schlenker, id say its a coinflip decision on your end. For one I wouldn't want to help out a crook... but at the same time this is the first time ive heard anything bad about Skar. decisions decisions.... The SA-12's aren't a terrible idea, they would just need a complete redesign as far as box goes. Or for the same price as SA-12's but more SQ and slightly less power handling, you could try out TC Sounds Epic 12's. Just suggestions. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 85 Registered: Jul-11 | http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/124847-the-truth/ Pwshhhhh I'm getting the skars when I get the money and that sundown amp |
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Gold Member Username: SomedonniedudeIllinois Braaap MX Post Number: 3237 Registered: May-07 | Im just saying if you're buying something new, you are paying for a warranty and customer service with it. but don't expect anything over the top for cs or with warranty claims. Caveman I saw where you said you are saving up your money for these woofers. i just hate to see someone spend their hard earned money with a shady company when for a little more they could possibly keep their self from having a negative experience with skar audio, because MANY customers have in the past with the owner. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 86 Registered: Jul-11 | Well as long as it doesnt break or I seriously screw it up, I should be ok. I have already talked to someone from team flex issues and hes running 2 12" vvx's with a cresendo 2000. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 883 Registered: May-09 | Ok caveman let me know how can I help with the box. Don't worry my thread on the same issue got terminated a few hours ago..lol |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 87 Registered: Jul-11 | I added a double baffle to your design and got a headache from it... :/ Ill post my measurements tomorrow, just hoping their right, and if you can check them for me before I start building? What you mean your thread was terminated? About what. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 885 Registered: May-09 | Above all describe me what you want, maybe a drawing. I just placed the same question you placed on SMD in a different forum, hell broke loose in a way I couldn't have anticipated, the the K man himself showed up to make some PR statement and within an hour my thread was terminated, yours dissapeared altogrther for whatever reason.. my guess is that threads on this topic have bad "fate". |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 88 Registered: Jul-11 | Well when I was in ISS I made the changes to the dimensions. I want your design that you made, just add the second baffle, thought I'd learn a little bit while I was at it so ill add a paint photo of what I did and the dimensions. Hopefully I didn't fail on the dimensions...well here it is   Yea I came back in like 2 hours and my thread was gone, I was kinda pissed. All he had to do was either say wrong place to put it or get an administrator to move it. Not like I was saying bad things about skar, it was all good. I just dont understand whyyyyyy |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 886 Registered: May-09 | Ok caveman so it would be difficult for me to check your dims, I wanted to look at a drawing just to make sure that this is what you wanted, I just ran my code to accomodate an extra board layer for flush sub mounting so notice that you can't mount the sub on the front of the external layer since that would modify it's own effective displacement. For simplicity and/or mechanical stability I have chosen for a different assembly method, the image show how the parts should be fitted (notice the extra green part on the front) for my cut list also below, I recommend that you follow this. Also check my dims before doing any cuts and let me know if you have any questions:  Enclosure Specifications: Fb = 30 Hz Vb = 2 ft^3 (per chamber) Subwoofer Mounting = Flush Mounted Port Internal Width (A) = 2 in External Width = 37.83 in External Height = 14 in External Depth = 24 in Cut List: * All Dimensions in Inches. * Wood Thickness is 0.75 for all Parts. External Enclosure Parts: 2 x Front & Back (3 parts) = 37.83 x 14 Left & Right Sides + Center Divider (3 parts) = 21.75 x 12.5 Top & Bottom = 37.83 x 21.75 L Ports Internal Assembly Parts (2 of each) : Front to Back = 19.75 x 12.5 Extension = 8.27 x 12.5 |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 89 Registered: Jul-11 | I was going to counter sink, if thats the right way to say it, the subs so the outside baffle would create a protection for the rim of the subs. Then for the baffles I no longer have a router, so I dont feel to comfortable making the baffles go all the way across. What if I changed the left and right side to 23.25 x 12.5? And the front 2 baffles to 32.33 x 14? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 887 Registered: May-09 | I understand your problem, I just don't want to compromise on what I believe is the best way to go about.. Alonzo's design features this approach of not going all across and full size on the driver surface, I am guessing he could fill in if he has built that way before. And yes that is a flush mount, the internal panel has mounting size holes and the external has full driver diameter, do it that way as the driver displacement was calculated for that. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 90 Registered: Jul-11 | I know this is a ways down and many complications later...but would your design really be that much of a difference then alonzos? To go with his design. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 888 Registered: May-09 | Yes are different like in my post 869 (up above) that enclosure is for SQ and as such will stay on baseline across the frequency range. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 91 Registered: Jul-11 | I understand that part, and your design promotes a plus 4 db which is for spl right? I thought that the lows were for vibrating objects, I mean you already know what I want. Its just will the 2 designs really change the difference in the shaking and breath taking pounding hits? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 291 Registered: Apr-10 | Ive been neglecting to post because my internet has been out for 2 days, and browsing forums on my phone can get annoying. Joe im not sure what you meant by "not going all across and full size on the driver surface". Caveman, my design has a slightly lower frequency extension and flatter respone; but around 33-40hz, joes design will get louder and more brutal than mine. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 92 Registered: Jul-11 | Ha I tried it once..never again. Well thank god your back, you might beable to help now. I like joes design and how he has it, but I dont have a router to cut the baffle ports and I really dont want to use a jigsaw for that. Can you possibly help me out here? Thats the answer I was looking for. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 889 Registered: May-09 | caveman, +3dB means double power which means that if you are putting in 800W it will get as loud as 1600W and that is occurring where 99% of the deep bass happens in songs check this rare thread that will let you test your music for bass content (I left a link to a free tool to do just that): https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/697201.html Alonzo, caveman would prefer not to use a full length, full height panel on the front since he would prefer not to cut-out holes for the ports. Your design allow that to be avoided. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 292 Registered: Apr-10 | Fyi, i still have no internet at home so i am using my phone. I see what you mean now. I always design boxes so that all of the walls and such are sandwiched between 2 equally sized top and bottom peices. It makws building more simple. I gotta ask though, without a router how do plan on cutting the speaker holes? |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 93 Registered: Jul-11 | Ahhhhhhhhh thats what it means!!! :D See alonzo if you had another slot port on the right side, that would be basically what I want. But if you added another port many things would change for your design I bet. Damn, do you have any clue when it might be back up?? O.o To me that seems like the strongest type of structure how you sandwiched everything. But then again this will be my first box so I know nothing. Well I planed on drawing the holes to whatever size, cut all 4 with a jigsaw (very slowly), and after go over everything with 100 grit sander kinda hope for the best there. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 891 Registered: May-09 | If the subs are sharing airspace there is little point in using two ports, in fact if the divider I placed was turn into a brace (by adding some holes) it would perform pretty much the same except that subs can steal energy from each other. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 293 Registered: Apr-10 | Brighthouse (cable company) technician wont be out here till friday... If you want i can design another box like joes but honestly i think it will come out very similar. Id start now but i actually have an exam in about 4 hours, then some more schoolwork and then im gonna try to catch up on some sleep before my next class... So i wont be able to get to a redesign till late tommorow if at all. Lol, i used a jigsaw on my first build, came out alright... But i suck witha jigsaw. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 94 Registered: Jul-11 | Well you understand where I was coming from lol I'll prolly be busy today and tomorrow, then my bud wants me to hook his system up saturday. I can try and go ask my friends and family if they have one, never know I might get lucky. Since the designs you say will probably be the same. The one thing I ask is if you can check his double baffle dimensions and thriple check if they work together? Atleast I dont have to do the whole box with a jigsaw...I have a table saw |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 294 Registered: Apr-10 | Aight so i redesigned joes box with a double baffle and the top and bottom peices sandwiching the rest of the box. I ran into the problem that joes design has the port height of 12inches, if you want to double baffle then the cuttout on the front baffle would be about 12.5 in diameter. You wont be able to sandwich the box together and do a double baffle with that port height. My redesign has a port height of 13.5 inches to fit the outter cutout. I would post picks but i have no internet on my desktop still, ill post them tommorow. Do to the larger port area the tuning went up a bit up to 31-32hz but its very similar to joes alignment. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 95 Registered: Jul-11 | Oh i see since it being a 12" sub the double baffle wouldnt beable to be made, common sense. Haha just waiting on the repair guy. So the curve is still close to joes and have the same output? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 295 Registered: Apr-10 | Yea I believe the difference between the alignments is negligible. Joe's (green), My re-design (gray)  Mine came out to be ~1.95 cuft per chamber after sub displacement, tuned ~31.5 Hz. Here is the basic box layout (with the top piece off):  The pictures with measurements get to blurry if I try to shrink them so here they are uploaded to tinypic: Exploded View Top View Front View |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 893 Registered: May-09 | According to my code that box should spec at 1.95cuft@31.1Hz so similar indeed. I would not go for a flush mount with it though, better to find a good grill and front mount the sub...granted it could be only me The version of the box I suggested is very commonly used with SPL subs.... it's an open question how much relevant to performance this is... having the benefit of the opinion of a builder would be nice but I have not seen any posts from bassman3 in a long while... |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 895 Registered: May-09 | Ok so here is an alternative sandwich design that will tune back to Fb = 30Hz and will give an extra couple of inches to the external front panel height so it stays strong despite the cut necessary to flush mount.  The drawing is an improvement to my previous ones and also helped me to verify that my code is working ok. (so far I have not liked sketchup at all). This box performs basically the same as my previous design (only a very small bass gain). I have checked that absolutely no negative side effects occur due to the increased Vb. Enclosure Specifications: Fb = 30 Hz Vb = 2.37158149 ft^3 (per chamber) Subwoofer Mounting = Flush Mounted Port Internal Width = 2 in External Width = 37.79 in External Height = 16 in External Depth = 24 in My code does not provide a cut list for the sandwich style assembly so it's as in the drawing. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 96 Registered: Jul-11 | So im flush mounting with the outside baffle or am I cutting into the inside baffle and letting the outside protect the rim of the sub? This is a little incompetent but I need some help figuring your box dimensions joe... |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 97 Registered: Jul-11 | -Box- (2) Top and bottom: 37 13/16 x 24 **(2) Left and Right: 23 ¼ x 14 ½ (1) Back: 36 ¼ x 14 ½ (1) Center Brace: 21 ¾ x 14 ½ (1) Outside Baffle: 32 ¼ x 14 ½ (1) Inside Baffle: 30 ¾ x 14 ½ -L port- (2) Front to Back: 20 ½ x 14 ½ (2) Left to Right: 7 1/8 x 14 ½ I got it now, Im just a little sketchy on the left and right side. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 896 Registered: May-09 | Left and Right: 24 x 14 1/2 Cut the front internal panel to the mounting diameter of the sub, cut front external panel to the external diameter of the sub. If someone borrowed you a router or whatever that would let you cut the ports nicely I would still strongly recommend my other design, if you are doing this last one make the strongest build possible using screws everywhere also. Fun with that build! |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 98 Registered: Jul-11 | Thanks I appreciate the help. I actually have 2 more questions for yall. What can I do to make the box stronger? I heard by fiber glassing the inside of the box. And joe why dont you have the corner pieces like alonzo's design, whats the purpose? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 296 Registered: Apr-10 | The wedges in the port are simply to help air flow more smoothly through the turn, if you notice in my design I also have the insider corner of each port turn rounded off, this is just how I do it, I couldn't tell you what the repercussions of not doing it will be. I do however think the box should be strong enough as is (any of the designs given to you), you will only be putting ~1200 watts to the subs correct? I suppose slathering some fiberglass on the inside of the box wold stiffen it up a bit, but it shouldnt be necessary. When I build a box I use wood glue between ALL joints then I clamp it together while it dries. Then I use a nail gun to reinforce all of the joints. On the inside of the box I run silicon caulk on every corner of the box to ENSURE a seal and thats it. Quick question for Joe though, is there any reason you prefer curring the port out with a router? |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 99 Registered: Jul-11 | Well then Ill do that, thats what I thought they were for so it would be a nicer sound coming out. Well to break them in Ill be using 1200 but then after that itll be around 2100. Ill use glue on everything haha and screws bc i dont think i have clamps either. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 897 Registered: May-09 | I didn't wedge the port because that becomes necessary mainly for narrow ports, also I don't know if it will be easy for you to make them. I reviewed airspeed on the ports and it's well below limits. If you want to do the wedge just make sure that the cross-sectional area of the port is preserved. Alonzo, no preference, what I meant to say is to go for my first design if caveman found any tools to cut nicely the ports. |
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Bronze Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 100 Registered: Jul-11 | Ha nevermind then if you say I dont need them then i dont. Idk this is my first box only way to learn from mistakes or learn things is to do them. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 899 Registered: May-09 | Ok caveman it seems you are all set, I will add that perfect cuts is the single most important thing you can do for a succesful build, have a piece of wood to test measurements before cutting your panels, all cuts of the same size should be done together, the 14.5 is critical. Use high quality glue and use it generously. You may also want to picture your progress! |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 101 Registered: Jul-11 | I plan on drawing everything out sort of like a template before I start cutting. Like Ive been told measure twice, cut once. Hopefully I can find a router from a neighbor or relative. Im going to make a build log and post it on here. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 297 Registered: Apr-10 | If you going to draw it all out on the sheet of MDF, remember that you need to take account the width of the tablesaw blade. In your shoes I would do my best to get my hands on a router, cutting the circles for the baffle would be 10 times easier, plus you could round off edges with a rounding bit, makes the box look more pro |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 102 Registered: Jul-11 | Wait no no, just to make sure I have enough mdf prolly just going to get 2 4x8 sheets. If not Ill take the jigsaw and go really slow, I can always fix imperfections. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 900 Registered: May-09 | "you need to take account the width of the tablesaw blade. " That is correct, so its better to test cut a piece of wood and measure there before doing any actual cuts. It's not really about you having the correct measurements drawn. A router would be great but it's not like you happen to find one just about anywhere, but I would seriously seek to it. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 103 Registered: Jul-11 | Ok well I guess I can start getting everything prepared for tomorrow since I cant really go get the mdf until then. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 104 Registered: Jul-11 | hey i found some contact cement would that work for glue? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 903 Registered: May-09 | Nothing should be used but wood glue a kicker paper recommends Titebond or Elmer's wood glue. This very important. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 105 Registered: Jul-11 | Okay then Ill pick some up tomorrow too. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 106 Registered: Jul-11 | Ahhhhhhh the pilot hole didnt work D: the mdf started spliting when i drilled a screw in |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 912 Registered: May-09 | Well, it's all in the screws, take a look: http://www.shop4fasteners.co.uk/acatalog/MDF-Tite_MDF_Wood_screws.asp You can find them almost anywhere. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 107 Registered: Jul-11 | Thought Id update coming good so far. Plan on either painting it or leaving it as is, but maybe tonite ill have pictures. Does anyone know the outside diameter of the vvx? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 301 Registered: Apr-10 | Should be around 12 1/2", I would do 12 5/8" to be safe, I dont think ive ever seen a 12' sub with an OD larger than 12 5/8". |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 941 Registered: May-09 | For anyone interested here are the performance plots of the box: This is the SPL vs frequency response plot, the yellow curve factoring in cabin gain (50Hz, 12dB/Octave), both plots ignore inductance effects which have basically no effect on the operating range. Note that the actual output will be 3dB above shown since there are 2 subs:  So the peak output will be around 130 dB SPL@32Hz This is a cone excursion plot at 1000W input power, since the sub has Xmax of 21.5mm it can be seen that it can be safely operated down to 21Hz, anyways a subsonic filter at 25Hz or so is recommended:  This is the vent airspeed plot it shows a moderate peak airspeed occuring at 30Hz. No port significant port noise is expected:  This is the group delay plot, high as with most ported designs and occurring at low frequency, because of that it will not be very noticeable:  Any comments are welcome. The actual build is here: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/698570.html |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 112 Registered: Jul-11 | To a person that knows nothing about all that ^^ Would you tell me what that is in laymen terms? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 943 Registered: May-09 | That's just for people to see and eventually comment on. So the first plot tells you how strong and deep is your bass, the second tell you how well the box is protecting the sub, the third tells you if you are going to experience bothersome port noise, the fourth plot tells you how clean and fast your bass is going to come out. Comes out well IMO but I am always open to different ideas. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 113 Registered: Jul-11 | So my system should run in the 130 db range? Well Ill be trying them tomorrow and comment how it goes. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 308 Registered: Apr-10 | Joe, dont forget double power too. If you run a single sub on 1kW to reach 1xx dB, then adding a second sub with a total of 2kW will be a theoretical gain of +6 dB. This isn't really a "burping" setup though so the SPL (dB) your setup can reach is nothing more than a number, the graph joe posted is just to show where to expect a peak in the response. Afterall these programs can never truely simulate the complex response you will get in a car. Whats more important is that you like how it sounds. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 945 Registered: May-09 | Alonzo, do that test and let me know how it went! And yeah, the in cabin gain exact transfer function is very complex and changes with every vehicle, however estimates a usually reasonably accurate check this plot the (yellow is the real one for an average car, the red is an estimate):  One thing affects the gain a lot and that is the size of your cabin the small ones get the most gain. and it gets worse.. the only way to know for sure is measuring at your seat position. "Whats more important is that you like how it sounds." <<< Nothing else matters! |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 114 Registered: Jul-11 | Well so far not impressed...but then I know why. My so be called father wont let me do anything to the truck so my electrical is killing itself. I need a higher alternator, another battery, and the big 3. Another thing is I need to set the amp right and break them in. Very impressed with the subs and amp though, the subs were very beefy and stiff, then the cone looks like even if you stabbed it the knife would break haha. Running at 2 ohms on 1200 watts with a screwed up electrical still gonna jam out! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 949 Registered: May-09 | You are right caveman those subs take a lot of power precisely because they are stiff and therefore low sensitivity. But there is a lot to check before blaming it on just power. I was wondering about the problems, not too loud, tonally bad?? don't sound clean?? Also I don't remember if that was a sundown amp or the model. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 115 Registered: Jul-11 | My electrical is the main problem well the alternator. Its not loud but clean, when I jack the gain to about 3/4 of the way is where Im impressed. But you dont have to have your gains all the way up for a daily driver. Ill prolly go see at my car audio place if they can set the amp for me since I know nothing about the dials really. And the amp is a sundown sax-1200d. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 953 Registered: May-09 | Also that amp will top at maybe somewhat above 1400W but not more so you can up your gain all you want as long as it's still clean power. The gains are set depending on your equipment specs not the usage of your subs. Having a truck also makes me think that your electrical system should hold. But I can't check on that since I don't know what you have. To get the 130dB you would need to source 1000W RMS to each sub so you maybe would need a second sundown, and the YES you would then run in to trouble with the electrical system. Anyways if you have any questions let me/us know. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 309 Registered: Apr-10 | If you own a digital multi-meter or can get your hands on one, tuning will be somewhat of a breeze. You can't just assume that you amp should be at low gain, it completely depends on the level of the signal being INPUT into the amplifier. If you can get your hands on a DMM, post back and we can teach you how to dial your amp in. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 116 Registered: Jul-11 | At 2 ohm bridged it gets 2160 rms??? I just wanted to break them in with their recommend rms then move up after they were. When I watched the dash volt meter, it was jumping from left and right. I definitely know it cant handle that power surge. The trucks a chevy silverado 1500 extented cab with a 5.3 L. Im not to much worried now since their are plans of purchasing a mustang for me from a person that owns 2 car audio companies :D so he should have done the big 3 with an upgraded amp and battery, if theres a sub in the trunk maybe even another battery back there. I have a meter too, I set my gains on my alpine before i sold it, just i dont understand the- subsonic, lpf, and phase shift. What is that exactly, the frequencies in which you want it. Ha I know I definitely couldnt get my hands on that. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 117 Registered: Jul-11 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBbvllZnJe8 This video explained it for me last time. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 954 Registered: May-09 | Ok caveman the power you see listed there is for a linked amp (with a second one). Now I didn't ask you if your subs are dual 4 ohm or dual 2 ohm. I also ignore the gauge of your power cables. Before talking about gains it would be useful to know the above infos. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 118 Registered: Jul-11 | Wow really? So I cant bridge it. Wish I wouldve known that before I got it, I didnt really think about it. Their d2's and everythings 2 awg. Now its like wtf I gotta sell this amp and go find me another one to run at 2k, great. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 955 Registered: May-09 | AAAAAAAAAAAHH, double 2 ohm?? so they must be wired for a total load of 2 ohm!!! Damn! HAHAHA!! OK, you are giving 360W of power to each sub right now....lame! The simplest way to fix this is getting a second SAX and link it, if not you are going to have to get a 0.5 ohm stable amp, in any case you are going to need to go to 1/0g most likely. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 119 Registered: Jul-11 | Are we on the same page haha? Their both interdependently wired for 1 ohm. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 310 Registered: Apr-10 | So are they in series-parallel or parallel-parallel? Series-parallel = 2-ohm final load. Parallel-parallel = 0.5-ohm final load. If you have them at a 2-ohm final load, then that amp is only rated to put out 720 wrms clean @ 2-ohms, its probably a tad under-rated but your probably still not getting more than 420 wrms CLEAN per sub. If you have them at 0.5-ohm, well it technically isn't rated that low, but being a sundown amp, im sure it can handle it. I saw a guy on CACO that clamped that amp at 0.5-ohm; with impedance rise it reached 0.85-ohms and put out 1490 wrms. If this is how you wired them then you are probably getting about 600-700 wrms per sub. Either way I would also suggest getting a second amp and strapping them. Or you could sell that amp and maybe buy a pair of AQ1200D's and strap them, itll be cheaper than running 2 SAX1200's. Another option is a Crescendo BC3500 which I believe is rated to do ~2100 wrms @ 2-ohms and it costs around $600. In order to get the pricing you need to call/email Crescendo though because they are building a new website. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 959 Registered: May-09 | caveman, take a look: http://www.db-r.com/sell/store2/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65_67_69_108&zen id=bgfg5hhv2asfeha5s10hm4u0nc4biu9v This will be a cheaper way to get the second one if you are going that route. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 120 Registered: Jul-11 | Go take a look at the amp, its not a mono block with one connection place, its kind of like a 2-channel ok. One sub is parallel then ran to the amp, the other sub is hooked up parallel then ran to the amp. Yea I was looking at the cresendo. To be honest I would like to hold this forum off till next year, so when I get the mustang I can actually see what he upgraded on it. Thanks joe |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 960 Registered: May-09 | Yes, most if not all monoblocks are like that, seem like a 2 channel but is a parallel connection you can check with the DMM, got the manual of yours, and ok caveman all you need to do is get a proper amplification anyways. 2K at either 0.5 or 2 ohm. Happy holidays. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 311 Registered: Apr-10 | Right, tons of amps just add extra terminals to make it easier to hook up your speakers, inside the amp the terminals are simply wired in parallel. So if you have each sub at 1-ohm and each sub hooked up to one speaker terminal... then you are running parallel-parallel which is 0.5-ohm. I wouldn't recommend it but alot of people do it so its your call. Side note... will that box fit in a mustang? or you gonna need a new box? |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 121 Registered: Jul-11 | See I never wouldve known that till now, thanks for letting me know. And when I come back we can discuss the power options I have. You too. With the sundown amp I think it could handle the half ohm if I gave it enough constant juice. Ive heard and read good things about them. I will MAKE it fit in that mustang haha, but anyway we measured a friends 98 mustang (since 94 to 99 mustangs are the same i think) and it didnt fit threw the trunk. But the one im getting has the rear seats to where they can fold. So Ill try and fit the box through like that....if not then yea Ill need a new box....why? |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 312 Registered: Apr-10 | Oh I totally forgot about the Crescendo Concerto series... the c1600.2. Its a 2-channel amp with each channel stable to 1-ohm, so bridged at 2-ohms it puts out like ~1800 wrms and the amp only costs $400. Pretty good deal imo, just another suggestion. It is a class AB amp though so you can expect a larger power draw. As far as the box fitting in your "to-be" mustang, I was just curious cuz I know mustangs have very little space to give up. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 122 Registered: Jul-11 | I know I checked my buds out and I was like damnnnnnn its small, since its not really an open trunk bunch of curves. Its like 13 to try and fit so thats why I thought about trying the back seat. Itll be awhile though so Ill comment whenever things are situated. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 965 Registered: May-09 | caveman, I guess you love vegas style. The Mustang will be cool even if the box doesn't fit though. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 123 Registered: Jul-11 | What you mean? Since its being my first actual car, im going to make it my baby :D |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 976 Registered: May-09 | @caveman I found these measurements in some thread regarding a 95 Mustang (compatible dims with a 98), if the guy is right you have a shot at fitting that box, you are short one inch: I have a 95, but i dont think the trunk size changed much if at all.. heres as close a spec as i got... side to side widest part 56" side to side narrowest part 40" front to back with latch clearance 28" floor to trunk lid, 15" you will have to work the trunk lid hinges into it. I used to build boxes and you will have to see it for yourself before you do it.. but i hope these specs get you started.... @Alonzo "Joe, dont forget double power too." no, sorry, I was really talking about power, not acoustic reinforcement as it might appear, I will rarely factor in that, it is theoretical at best and from that I have read not always will produce the 3dB for different reasons, so no point in getting people enthusiastic on that. I got that gain multiplying No. per the number of "nearby" drivers and placing that into the SPL equation to get a "global sensitivity"...whatever. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 124 Registered: Jul-11 | So close :D |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 125 Registered: Jul-11 | Kinda got bored and did some research. Jacob did some testing on the sax 1200d and here it is: "Two Stinger SPV-70 Batteries / 40-amp Power Supply / 8 awg wire power and Ground (this amp should have 4 awg) Wired to 1 ohm nominal : 1170 Watts @ 12.5 volts 1.97 ohms after impedance rise Wired to 0.5 ohm nominal : 1490 Watts @ 11.1 volts 0.85 ohms after impedance rise --- Measured with my Extech True RMS power clamp meter several seconds into the tone @ 60 Hz -- this typically reads about ~15-16% less than a "dual peak hold" amp clamp test. We'll do some more testing with a more adequate power wire coming up soon. The test bench 4 awg has the ends tinned so is a bit too big to go into the SAX-1200D terminals -- will need to get it in a vehicle." So Joe and anyone else, I am thinking about getting that other sax, heres my question should I strap them or just run them seperately seeing the numbers? (around 3k seperate or 2.2k strapped) |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 998 Registered: May-09 | Yes you can run the subs separately, each on one SAX-1200D wired at 1 ohm, it will give whatever it gives but will be better that way, but I am thinking that your electrical system will get pounded this time. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 323 Registered: Apr-10 | The amps will do the same power strapped or not. If it clamps doing 1500 @ .85 ohms, then two of them strapped on 1.7-ohms (.85 each) will do 3000 watts, you don't need to run them separately. The main advantage to strapping is that gain is controlled by the "Master" amplifier while the "slave" amp gain is bypassed therefore you wont need to tune 2 amplifiers to try and match them perfectly. You can run them strapped, but you WILL need to upgrade your electrical if you plan on pushing 2kW+... honestly though, I think if you do that your going to blow the subs, the 600wrms rating may be conservative... but throwing that much power at these subs seems crazy to me. Then again I don't have experience with them. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 999 Registered: May-09 | At this point I think is unnecessary to bring up the point of the subwoofers blowing due to excessive power...Skars can take it all! I prefer to use as reference a business document to draw conclusions though so going by the manual: Linked power is 2130W Run separately 1200 + 1200 = 2400W For some reason they chose to rate that way or they just would have gone for a 2400 rating on linked mode. |
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Silver Member Username: AlonzoubPost Number: 324 Registered: Apr-10 | I guess we'll have to wait and see how much power Skars can take. Im just saying, giving them something safe like 700 wRMS each vs 1200 wRMS each will not only save money on amps, but itll stress the electrical system less, and will be WAY less risk on the subs.... all at the cost of... 2dB? That is strange how they rated the SAX1200D, considering every other sundown amp (and like 95% of all strap-able monoblocks and bridgable stereo-amps) is rated "X wrms @ 1-ohm, 2X wrms @ 2-ohm linked." |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 126 Registered: Jul-11 | Dont worry about electrical or anything else, just strapped or not? Promise you whenever these plans actually go into action the electrical will be maxed out, the car will fall apart before the electrical even fluctuates :D true too about not worrying about the power But alonzo think, Im a noob on all things audio, even though yes I understand the concept and the way to hook them up. It would be easier for a person like me with not that much expierence to go that way. Look heres a video you should go look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLI5rozdXo4&feature=player_embedded As of right now it does shake the truck more then the cvrs but not as much bass which is kinda confusing to me, might just be the way its setup. When you watch the video and see the flexing even after 2 layers of roadkill thats impressive. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 127 Registered: Jul-11 | Ok ok 1500 rms to one skar 12 d2 at 1 ohm..FTWWWWW!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=64EJliLcZnM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXjCGMZuE8E&feature=related |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1007 Registered: May-09 | The symptoms you talk about make perfect sense, you are playing too low for your taste, just set the subsonic filter to knob to about 30Hz and increase the bassboost knob to at least 4 dB (if not all the way up). That will make things more CVR like. When your car is on check the voltage on the battery to stay above 13V at all times, even when playing. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 128 Registered: Jul-11 | Thats prolly the problem too I jump from 12 to 14 when Im playing. Well lets talk about whats going on so far. Plan on buying yet another sax 1200d (running each sub on 1), running 0 awg through and through the whole car, obviously doing the big 3, changing the stock alternator with a 300 amp one (unless some one says its to much), already have a 250 anl inline fuse plus one or two more for the alternator and trunk battery. Now lets talk about the trunk battery Ill be needing. I know stingers good, kinetik, and then theres xs power which I know Steve Meade uses in all his builds. For stinger I thought about the SPP1500D, xs power d1200, and for kinetik I have no idea but those are kinda huge. Any other opinions besides optima Id like to hear. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1009 Registered: May-09 | The two amps can draw 230A by themselves so >250A alt would best (yes of course that's assumig the subs will hold). Also check the 1/0 current rating if buying cheap. Just to make sure the alt goes in bEfOrE! the batteries. I really don't think you need 3 batteries for this unless you are using the audio with the car turned off too often, Expensive stuff you are looking at! ... what do you have for batteries in the front? |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 129 Registered: Jul-11 | Since mechman doesnt build an amp for my mustang had to go and use ebay. Found one that puts out 300A for $270. You mean less then 250 or get more then? Prolly gonna use some xs wire, but I do have some memphis 2 awg right now. Ha no I was giving ideas, all I want is 2 batteries (one in the front and one in the back). The xs is $205 and the stinger is $255. I know this is going to cost an arm, a leg, and a kidney but thats what you get for this hobby. Then yall must think I sound like an arrogant teen with all this money but would you rather have planned for the future and found lower prices or buy at last minute for the highest price when you couldve gotten cheaper for the same product. ...dont have the mustang yet...itll be here in a week or two though |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1015 Registered: May-09 | Ok caveman if you are ok with the price of the 300A it will be better for you to get that. I guessed 3 batteries since I assumed they let you mod the truck, hell, you are getting that Mustang fast! If you can make both batteries the same model I would highly reommend that. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 130 Registered: Jul-11 | Ok. No...he wont let me touch the truck. I cant even put a new hu in it or speakers in the doors. Weve actually been talking about it for a month, I could have it today if I just traveled to Arkansas but no. Have to wait till the guy comes down here with it. If at any the battery in the front will either be stock or something like a yellow top and I dont plan on buying that little thing. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 131 Registered: Jul-11 | Well thought I'd do a some what update. I made another box but this time made it sealed at 1.7 cubes. I like it quit nicely for the vibrations rather then the ported. But I rather the ported because it allows it to be louder. Another thing is that instead of 400-600 rms to 1 12" I have the full power going to 1 at 0.5 ohm. The excursion scares the living sh!t out of me, it comes out 2 inches about. But that comes with a sealed box. Very impressed so far with them. On another note, no word on the car yet... :/ |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1089 Registered: May-09 |  On Red the ported you have. (one sub only). On Orange a 1.7cuft sealed enclosure as you made. Sealed won't work for SPL setups, as you can see it's something like 8-9dB less loud.. which is a massive loss. If you want to get louder a 35Hz tuned box or the second amp. |
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Silver Member Username: CavemandjdMorgan City, Louisiana United States Post Number: 132 Registered: Jul-11 | I was just saying... |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1090 Registered: May-09 | lol.. me too caveman.. happy holidays! |
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